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  #76  
Old 10-04-2018, 09:52 PM
Paulwny Paulwny is offline
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You're probably not going to get an ounce of credit but that reply made my day. I shouldn't have to add any qualifier but not because I want or am sure that Moncada will fail.
Thanks, glad I was able to brighten someone's day.
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  #77  
Old 10-04-2018, 10:47 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
Sale netted them the number 1 prospect in baseball and a guy who within 10 months was the best pitching prospect in baseball... but they didnít get a premium? Okay.

Eaton netted them two major league caliber starting pitchers, with a third possibly on the way. Still not sure what the problem with this is, because everybody who isnít you said and still says the Nationals significantly overpaid.

You just keep beating the same points into the ground over and over and they keep getting rebutted over and over. Not sure what youíre getting out of it but it kind of negates the point of discussion since you seem so dead set on this particular narrative.
Thank you for saving me the trouble of typing this. Holy cow. Adam Eaton, an oft injured, good defensive, so so offensive player who has been known to be a clubhouse cancer in 2 locations (AZ and Chicago) nets 3 top 100 specs, and now we know 3 guys who will be at one time top 50 or better, and we don't like the move?

I feel like if some posters don't like Rick Hahn, then unless they get Mike Trout back in a trade, Hahn lost the deal.
^This.

It's one thing to legitimately question whether a particular player such as Moncada will pan out....and there's been some good debate that here that is interesting to read. But it's another to just spin every move the Sox make in the worst possible light.
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  #78  
Old 10-05-2018, 10:54 AM
kobo kobo is offline
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The Sale trade wasnít a bad trade per se- but they didnít get a premium either. Eaton was okay (but should have pushed for Robles). Q was very good. The rest before and during the rebuild stunk. Most were made on the other teamsí terms, with Hahn taking stunted Rule 5 guys. The exception is Eaton #1, which was great. But that type of trade was not repeated. Instead they rented the Shark for a year under some delusion that he could transform a 73 win team into a contender. Then they refused to trade him in July and used the comp pick on a college reliever.
The ineptitude just goes on and on.
I don't think it's fair to evaluate trades that happened before the Sale trade. You have some weird belief that the rebuild started before the Sale trade but I consider the Sale trade the start of the rebuild. If anyone wants to debate on that fine, let's have that discussion elsewhere. But if we are going to look at trades made since the Sale trade then let's do just that.


The Sale and Eaton trades were on back-to-back days. Since those 2 trades these are the others that were made:


1. 5/26/17 - Traded Ryan Rayburn to the Nationals for Player to be named/cash
2. 7/13/17 - Traded Quintana to the Cubs for Dylan Cease, Bryant Flete, Eloy Jimenez and Matt Rose.
3. 7/19/17 - Traded Todd Frazier, Tommy Kahnle and David Robertson to the New York Yankees. Received Ian Clarkin , Tito Polo, Blake Rutherford and Tyler Clippard.
4. 7/26/17 - Traded Anthony Swarzak to the Milwaukee Brewers. Received Ryan Cordell.
5. 7/27/17 - Traded Dan Jennings to the Tampa Bay Rays. Received Casey Gillaspie

6. 7/30/2017 - Traded Melky Cabrera and cash to the Kansas City Royals. Received Andre Davis and A.J. Puckett.
7. 8/11/17 - Traded international bonus slot money to the Arizona Diamondbacks. Received Ryan Burr.
8. 8/13/17 - Traded Tyler Clippard to the Houston Astros. Received player to be named or cash.
9. 8/31/17 - Traded Miguel Gonzalez to the Texas Rangers. Received Ti'Quan Forbes

10. 11/16/17 - Traded international bonus slot money to the Seattle Mariners. Received Thyago Vieira.
11. 1/4/2018 - As part of a 3-team trade, traded Jake Peter (minors) to the Los Angeles Dodgers. Received Luis Avilan and cash from the Los Angeles Dodgers and Joakim Soria and cash from the Kansas City Royals.
12. 3/28/18 - Traded international bonus slot money to the Philadelphia Phillies. Received Ricardo Pinto.
13. 4/19/18 - Sold Tyler Saladino to the Milwaukee Brewers. Traded player to be named or cash to the Oakland Athletics. Received Trayce Thompson.
14. 4/27/18 - Traded player to be named to the Pittsburgh Pirates. Received Todd Cunningham.
15. 7/26/18 - Traded Joakim Soria and cash to the Milwaukee Brewers. Received Kodi Medeiros and Wilber Perez.
16. 7/29/18 - Traded international bonus slot money to the New York Yankees. Received Caleb Frare.
17. 8/22/18 - Traded Luis Avilan to the Philadelphia Phillies. Received Felix Paulino.
18. 8/31/18 - Traded Xavier Cedeno to the Milwaukee Brewers. Received Bryan Connell and Johan Dominguez.


So do all of those 'stink'? If you feel they were bad moves why were they bad and what would you have done differently?
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  #79  
Old 10-05-2018, 02:27 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Is it really that rare though? I can point to more than a handful of players who hit the ground running and never looked back over the last 5 seasons.
Lindor
Bryant
Correa
Bregman
Acuna
Soto
just off the top of my head, there are more that I'm not thinking of.
Seven over a five year period=rare.

Have you forgotten that during his rookie year, we called Bryant "Kkkkris" for his prodigious strike out numbers? It was the local media and Cub fans who acted like he was the Second Coming when he arrived.
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  #80  
Old 10-05-2018, 08:48 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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Seven over a five year period=rare.

Have you forgotten that during his rookie year, we called Bryant "Kkkkris" for his prodigious strike out numbers? It was the local media and Cub fans who acted like he was the Second Coming when he arrived.

He hit .275 with 26 HR and 99 RBI...
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  #81  
Old 10-06-2018, 11:25 AM
mzh mzh is offline
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Seven over a five year period=rare.

Have you forgotten that during his rookie year, we called Bryant "Kkkkris" for his prodigious strike out numbers? It was the local media and Cub fans who acted like he was the Second Coming when he arrived.
Yeah, the only thing that line of argument shows is that Moncada probably isn’t a generational, hall of fame level superstar, and this somehow means he has no chance of ever being a decent or high quality player

Disappointing that such a highly ranked prospect isn’t quite at that level, yes, but he was never supposed to be a sure thing, and if he just turns out to be an all star or even slightly above average it doesn’t mean everything is a failure. There are other players and other prospects out there.
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  #82  
Old 10-06-2018, 11:34 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Yeah, the only thing that line of argument shows is that Moncada probably isnít a generational, hall of fame level superstar, and this somehow means he has no chance of ever being a decent or high quality player

Disappointing that such a highly ranked prospect isnít quite at that level, yes, but he was never supposed to be a sure thing, and if he just turns out to be an all star or even slightly above average it doesnít mean everything is a failure. There are other players and other prospects out there.
Maybe some out there said he would be a generational star, but I never expected that. I expected him to be an all-star caliber player and he still has that ability. If we get a HOF player even better.
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  #83  
Old 10-06-2018, 06:08 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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I don't think it's fair to evaluate trades that happened before the Sale trade. You have some weird belief that the rebuild started before the Sale trade but I consider the Sale trade the start of the rebuild. If anyone wants to debate on that fine, let's have that discussion elsewhere. But if we are going to look at trades made since the Sale trade then let's do just that.
The only quibble on that is that it did start in July. They made the decision to rebuild in July. But that's minor, except that Hahn sat out a prime trading season.
That said, it is relevant to evaluate trades before then because Hahn started well before then. Good gracious he gets Samardzija, Frazier, Melky, Robertson, switches catchers (what a bad set of moves that turned out to be) signs all sorts of other silly free agents and he improves the team from 73 wins to 78 wins. The only legitimate justification for renting Samardzija was that they were going to sign him...but they didn't; if he had followed through with the plan,maybe, just maybe he never would have traded for Shields. That era was run by Hahn and was a massive failure.

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1. 5/26/17 - Traded Ryan Rayburn to the Nationals for Player to be named/cash. This is nothing.
2. 7/13/17 - Traded Quintana to the Cubs for Dylan Cease, Bryant Flete, Eloy Jimenez and Matt Rose. Great trade on paper; appears to be great.
3. 7/19/17 - Traded Todd Frazier, Tommy Kahnle and David Robertson to the New York Yankees. Received Ian Clarkin , Tito Polo, Blake Rutherford and Tyler Clippard. Sox gave up 3 tradeable pieces for, essentially Rutherford. I'm no Frazier fan but he's Moustakas (whom I'm also no fan of); relievers have value in July. They used a lot of assets, and while it's not a bad trade, there was no premium in this trade.
4. 7/26/17 - Traded Anthony Swarzak to the Milwaukee Brewers. Received Ryan Cordell. Not a good trade. Cordell was on the decline and was being passed around and Rule 5 eligible. Swarzak was one of the best relievers in the league. Maybe it was worth the risk if Cordell could play a great CF, but he can't.
5. 7/27/17 - Traded Dan Jennings to the Tampa Bay Rays. Received Casey Gillaspie . Not a good trade. Jennings is solid pitcher; Gillaspie had never shown a thing in the minors. Nor was this a position of need

6. 7/30/2017 - Traded Melky Cabrera and cash to the Kansas City Royals. Received Andre Davis and A.J. Puckett. Those 2 aren't even prospects. But better than Gillaspie
7. 8/11/17 - Traded international bonus slot money to the Arizona Diamondbacks. Received Ryan Burr. Burr is nothing. But the better question is why aren't they using their international money on international signings?
8. 8/13/17 - Traded Tyler Clippard to the Houston Astros. Received player to be named or cash. Non-trade really.
9. 8/31/17 - Traded Miguel Gonzalez to the Texas Rangers. Received Ti'Quan Forbes This is okay; Gonzalez is awful.

10. 11/16/17 - Traded international bonus slot money to the Seattle Mariners. Received Thyago Vieira. See Burr above.
11. 1/4/2018 - As part of a 3-team trade, traded Jake Peter (minors) to the Los Angeles Dodgers. Received Luis Avilan and cash from the Los Angeles Dodgers and Joakim Soria and cash from the Kansas City Royals.
Solid trade to acquire some flips. But then, he botched the flipping.
12. 3/28/18 - Traded international bonus slot money to the Philadelphia Phillies. Received Ricardo Pinto. Sign international players; heck the best prospect they've groomed in 1/2 a decade was an international signing. The best prospect they have right now was an international signing.
13. 4/19/18 - Sold Tyler Saladino to the Milwaukee Brewers. Traded player to be named or cash to the Oakland Athletics. Received Trayce Thompson. Pure give-away. They had no need for Trayce.
14. 4/27/18 - Traded player to be named to the Pittsburgh Pirates. Received Todd Cunningham. Org minor leaguer trade.
15. 7/26/18 - Traded Joakim Soria and cash to the Milwaukee Brewers. Received Kodi Medeiros and Wilber Perez. Medeiros is another stunted prospect; one Williams liked in the draft 4 years ago.
16. 7/29/18 - Traded international bonus slot money to the New York Yankees. Received Caleb Frare. This one may be okay; the best among the internationals.
17. 8/22/18 - Traded Luis Avilan to the Philadelphia Phillies. Received Felix Paulino. Nothing
18. 8/31/18 - Traded Xavier Cedeno to the Milwaukee Brewers. Received Bryan Connell and Johan Dominguez. Nothing for nothing.


So do all of those 'stink'? If you feel they were bad moves why were they bad and what would you have done differently?
See my comments above. Where are the great moves? You need some to rebuild. Look at who the Cubs, Astros, Brewers got in minor league deals. I admit they, as a group, aren't the worst trades I've ever seen, but as a group they aren't particularly good and he's got to score big on some of these. Have they improved the team beyond the Q trade? And Q had value, so it darn well better improve the team.

Last edited by Tragg; 10-06-2018 at 06:17 PM.
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  #84  
Old 10-06-2018, 09:55 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Maybe some out there said he would be a generational star, but I never expected that. I expected him to be an all-star caliber player and he still has that ability. If we get a HOF player even better.
Exactly. He was ranked so highly because he has a ceiling that few others have, not because he was someone expected to hit the ground running at a high level like Harper or Correa were. Thatís why I donít think itís fair to use the success of players like Bryant or AcuŮa against him or against management. He performed poorly this year, but that doesnít mean the skills that got him there are diminished. Heís raw enough that I think itís pretty reasonable to expect him to take even 3 or 4 years to really put it all together. And thatís why I donít think it makes sense to draw long-term conclusions and judgments at this point in time, as some are doing.
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  #85  
Old 10-06-2018, 10:03 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Exactly. He was ranked so highly because he has a ceiling that few others have, not because he was someone expected to hit the ground running at a high level like Harper or Correa were. That’s why I don’t think it’s fair to use the success of players like Bryant or AcuŮa against him or against management. He performed poorly this year, but that doesn’t mean the skills that got him there are diminished. He’s raw enough that I think it’s pretty reasonable to expect him to take even 3 or 4 years to really put it all together. And that’s why I don’t think it makes sense to draw long-term conclusions and judgments at this point in time, as some are doing.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying and it is certainly reasonable. However what is unsaid is the pressure is starting to build on this organization to start showing some overall improvement next season. It's not just on Moncada or Gialito or whomever, it's franchise-wise.

They have been down for so long, all the metrics across the board...attendance, media coverage, advertising, TV ratings are poor, that the fan base while patient will not be patient forever.

Now in my mind that doesn't mean going from 62 to 75 wins, or somehow making a run at .500, it means improvement across the spectrum...better performances by the guys factoring into the rebuild, better fundamentals and less baseball-stupidity, better decisions by the field manager, a comprehensive review of the training / conditioning methods to see if anything is being missed leading to the serious multiple injuries. Just show the fan base that things are starting to come together.

Just was in touch earlier with someone in the front office and they agreed with me, the White Sox have got to show improvement next year or the fans are going to start to turn on the rebuild and start to become even more apathetic.
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  #86  
Old 10-07-2018, 12:05 AM
bestkosher bestkosher is offline
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Me personally, I always felt that tanking was a form of cheating. I had the same problem when the Cubs did it. Can it land you prospects sure but you are sacrificing your integrity as a team to do so. To not compete is to not in my opinion play baseball professionally. I would rather a team at least try to compete and if they fail then sell off what they can and try again next year then bottom out with "hopes" of hitting on a lottery ticket.
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  #87  
Old 10-07-2018, 02:01 AM
Falstaff Falstaff is offline
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6. 7/30/2017 - Traded Melky Cabrera and cash to the Kansas City Royals. Received Andre Davis and A.J. Puckett. Those 2 aren't even prospects. But better than Gillaspie

So the White Sox (and most of WSI) considered Melky to be throw away. Meanwhile Cleveland has him installed in the outfield and they are in the playoffs. What is wrong with this pic?
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  #88  
Old 10-07-2018, 06:25 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Me personally, I always felt that tanking was a form of cheating.

You see what tanking has led to. One would think that any business openly admitting to putting out less that their best product would entice their fans to come to the park through promotions and lowers ticket prices. I do believe that the Cubs saw their average ticket price drop in those dark years of 2012-2013.



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Originally Posted by bestkosher View Post
I had the same problem when the Cubs did it. Can it land you prospects sure but you are sacrificing your integrity as a team to do so. To not compete is to not in my opinion play baseball professionally. I would rather a team at least try to compete and if they fail then sell off what they can and try again next year then bottom out with "hopes" of hitting on a lottery ticket.

I am not sure baseball and integrity should be in the same sentence. :')


I totally agree with you putting players out on the field that cannot play a fundamentally sound game is, to me, an sign of a poor organization.



Lets look at a handful of realities an issues:
  • First off the Cubs are a difference species all together. That organization is tanked, fans griped, but in the end they went through the gates and attended games. I am pretty confident that the Cubs yearly attendance in 2012 & 2013 exceeded the MLB average of all the other NL teams over 2012 & 2013.
  • In the end the fan votes with his/her dollar. They make the choice to go to games or stay home. In the case of the Cubs fans voted to attend ballgames.
  • What is the end result of tanking? It's a race to the bottom mentality. Now you have multiple organizations going this route. Maybe if these organizations were structurally sound they would not be in this situation?
  • The game is losing fans because of the countless ways people can go about entertaining themselves.
  • The execution of the fundamentals by the players (quality), IMO, is down. Who wants to see a bad performance or buy a poor product?
  • Umpires behind the plate cannot call balls and strikes on a consistent basis according to the rules on the books.
  • The average MLB games takes longer to complete: https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/10/02/ml...ame-time-rises
  • For all those reasons MLB attendance is down. The big market teams tend to raise their prices and come up with television packages that seem to cost more and more money. In some cases those TV packages have excluded home town fans http://www.latimes.com/sports/mlb/la...717-story.html
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  #89  
Old 10-07-2018, 08:18 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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6. 7/30/2017 - Traded Melky Cabrera and cash to the Kansas City Royals. Received Andre Davis and A.J. Puckett. Those 2 aren't even prospects. But better than Gillaspie

So the White Sox (and most of WSI) considered Melky to be throw away. Meanwhile Cleveland has him installed in the outfield and they are in the playoffs. What is wrong with this pic?
That the Indians are hitting him 6th or 7th, and we were hitting him 3rd or 4th?
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  #90  
Old 10-07-2018, 01:25 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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6. 7/30/2017 - Traded Melky Cabrera and cash to the Kansas City Royals. Received Andre Davis and A.J. Puckett. Those 2 aren't even prospects. But better than Gillaspie

So the White Sox (and most of WSI) considered Melky to be throw away. Meanwhile Cleveland has him installed in the outfield and they are in the playoffs. What is wrong with this pic?
You could just as easily flip this around and say that the Sox managed to get two players for a guy who couldn't even get a big league contract a few months later.

Most of MLB considered him to be a throwaway. The fact that they got any value for him at all is a plus.
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