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  #46  
Old 07-07-2018, 09:35 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
The big assumption is that ANYBODY decent will want to take that money all things being equal (i.e. other suitors) given the Sox by that point could be going on basically 13 years of less than stellar play in 2020 / 2021. That's the risk you potentially take. Plus you have no real idea the caliber and quantity of available free agents then.

As I've said before potential is a great thing but guys want to win now. And given the circumstances surrounding the franchise it could be a VERY difficult sell job.

Showing improvement on the field in the win / loss column in 2019 could make that selling job a little easier to do in 2020, 2021, 2022.

I think it could be helpful to add bullpen help, but...


Premium relievers rarely become free agents, so we would have to acquire one by trade. Should we trade from among our very small collection of major league talent? Or should we trade prospects?


Or, if a premium reliever does become a free agent, then we probably would have to give up a draft pick to sign him. Should we give up that draft pick that is so critical to re-stocking the talent supply in our minor league system?



Or, we could sign or trade for "less than premium" relievers. Of course, these relievers are usually inconsistent from year to year.


For where our club is right now, I think the best course to building a bullpen is from within: both guys who are succeeding as relievers in the minors right now (like Ian Hamilton, and Jace Fry before him), as well as starting pitchers who aren't good enough to crack our rotation but might be able to work in more limited settings (perhaps like Fulmer).
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  #47  
Old 07-07-2018, 09:54 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Jansen, Miller Chapman all hit the market. Even if the Sox had a premium reliever they'd be in the same position but with a few more wins. That's a move you make when you are ready to win.
The Brewers, who rebuilt in ONE year, got one of the best relievers in baseball (along with their starting RF) in return for a 5th starter and broken down CF. They also got their starting 3B for a middle reliever; And for the coup de grace, they picked up Junior Guerra off the White Sox cutting room floor.
Find and develop players; good organizations don't need contrivances to build.

Last edited by Tragg; 07-07-2018 at 10:14 AM.
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  #48  
Old 07-07-2018, 10:09 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
The team needs to develop a winning culture at some point- I'm not saying break the bank- and the internal options get priority, but with the room we'll have on the payroll- I'd like to see an investment in the bullpen.
Obviously it’s only two examples, but losing 100+ games multiple years in a row didn’t seem to damage the long term “culture” for the Astros and Cubs.

Last edited by ChiTownTrojan; 07-07-2018 at 11:28 AM. Reason: Not sure where the angry emoji came from. I’m not angry. Must have hit the button by mistake from my phone
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  #49  
Old 07-07-2018, 10:12 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Jansen, Miller Chapman all hit the market. Even if the Sox had a premium reliever they'd be in the same position but with a few more wins. That's a move you make when you are ready to win.
The FO has got to develop young pitching - there are no shortcuts.
This is the FO that thought Samardzija was a top of the rotation starter, thought Shields was an effective starter, held Noesi for over a season yet jettisoned Junior Guerra after a couple of bullpen appearances, signed Latos, Holland and the list goes on and on. And in one of the lesser transgressions, chose Robertson over Miller (at least Robertson was a good pitcher).
Develop young pitching.
Only Shark and Shields were brought on when the Sox were hoping to compete. The rest have all been sign and flip candidates. Signed on the cheap hoping to catch lightning in a bottle and flip for a younger player. Guerra is 33 and didn't make the majors until he was 29 also, not like they were going to give him years to figure it out and he might well be done by the time this team is ready to compete. Nice that he's having a good year for Milwaukee but last year he was a replacement level pitcher for them.
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  #50  
Old 07-07-2018, 10:49 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post


Obviously it’s only two examples, but losing 100+ games multiple years in a row didn’t seem to damage the long term “culture” for the Astros and Cubs.
Right. This “culture” talk is all missing the forest for the trees stuff.
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  #51  
Old 07-07-2018, 11:55 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
Obviously it’s only two examples, but losing 100+ games multiple years in a row didn’t seem to damage the long term “culture” for the Astros and Cubs.
Understood. My point is that the 2019 roster will mostly be made up of major league minimum players- possible arb eligible guys like Abreu and Avi, and a few other higher salaries (like Anderson).

I believe we have 3-4 legit bullpen prospects- I advocate spending some money on a few quality bullpen FA's- it's the ONLY area of the entire roster I would make this investment in- it does not stunt the rebuild, and is something we can afford to do- I don't think a 3rd consecutive season of a dumpster fire bullpen, blowing late leads is a good idea if we can avoid it- both for the development of the team itself as well as for a fan base starved for some progress.
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Players that are an important part of the rebuild:
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  #52  
Old 07-07-2018, 12:15 PM
Maximo Maximo is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
Understood. My point is that the 2019 roster will mostly be made up of major league minimum players- possible arb eligible guys like Abreu and Avi, and a few other higher salaries (like Anderson).

I believe we have 3-4 legit bullpen prospects- I advocate spending some money on a few quality bullpen FA's- it's the ONLY area of the entire roster I would make this investment in- it does not stunt the rebuild, and is something we can afford to do- I don't think a 3rd consecutive season of a dumpster fire bullpen, blowing late leads is a good idea if we can avoid it- both for the development of the team itself as well as for a fan base starved for some progress.
Agree....100 %.
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  #53  
Old 07-07-2018, 02:39 PM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
Understood. My point is that the 2019 roster will mostly be made up of major league minimum players- possible arb eligible guys like Abreu and Avi, and a few other higher salaries (like Anderson).

I believe we have 3-4 legit bullpen prospects- I advocate spending some money on a few quality bullpen FA's- it's the ONLY area of the entire roster I would make this investment in- it does not stunt the rebuild, and is something we can afford to do- I don't think a 3rd consecutive season of a dumpster fire bullpen, blowing late leads is a good idea if we can avoid it- both for the development of the team itself as well as for a fan base starved for some progress.
I'm not really against this, I guess I just don't see the point. Investing in the bullpen is important for a contender, but what exactly does it buy this team in 2019? A few more wins... to what end? Long term, all that really serves is for a higher draft pick.

More so than any other team sport, baseball is all about individual talent and performances. The most important thing in 2018, 2019, and maybe even 2020 is to develop that young talent. I fail to see how a stronger bullpen and more wins in 2019 is going to help turn the young players (Moncada, Anderson, Eloy, and the young pitchers) into better players in 2020-2025.

The players on this team aren't naive... they know this season is more about player development than team results. I can see how this could wear on veterans like Abreu and Shields. But guys like Moncada and Anderson are out there every day trying to prove they belong in this league. Literally, there entire livelihoods and future careers are staked to it (though both have made enough money already to be set for a long time). How much more motivation do they really need?

I agree that team chemistry is important, and that winning can be contagious. But it will be important to the team in 2020-2025, when they actually have something to play for, rather than 2019.

More specifically regarding the bullpen... there are more than 3-4 legitimate bullpen prospects in the Sox organization. Off the top of my head, Fry, Bummer, Burdi, Hamilton, Burr, and Thompson have all had varying degrees of success in a bullpen role. Then there are current starters who might not make the rotation but could have a future in the bullpen (Fullmer, Stephens, Flores, Guerrero, Clarkin, etc.). Then there are a bunch of starters currently in the lower ranks, who may be ready in the next few years and just have to bide their time in the bullpen until a starting spot opens up.
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  #54  
Old 07-08-2018, 01:09 AM
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Nellie_Fox Nellie_Fox is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
As legal sports gambling expands, you'll learn all about it on every sports broadcast!
I still won't pay any attention to it, since I get nothing out of gambling.
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