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  #16  
Old 02-14-2020, 04:00 PM
KRS1 KRS1 is offline
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Hits

Abreu- 180

Sano- 94

Literally, all Sano has on Jose is HR rate and BB. Everything else isn’t even a talking point. One guy plays the game well every day, the other pleases mathematicians while he swings out of his boots for 2/3 a season.
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  #17  
Old 02-14-2020, 05:57 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Abreu over Sano and it's not even close.
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  #18  
Old 02-14-2020, 06:30 PM
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FielderJones FielderJones is offline
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Originally Posted by KRS1 View Post
Christ I hate the dundermifflinsabre-or-nothing crowd.

Spreadsheet blinders on.


How about we can find some other way besides very limited, very imperfect analytics to enjoy the game of baseball.
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  #19  
Old 02-14-2020, 06:55 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by FielderJones View Post
Spreadsheet blinders on.


How about we can find some other way besides very limited, very imperfect analytics to enjoy the game of baseball.
I enjoy it just fine.

Miguel Sano is better than Jose Abreu. I donít need a spreadsheet or a formula to tell me that.

Jose Abreu isnít even better than Edwin Encarnacion, let alone Miguel Sano.
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  #20  
Old 02-14-2020, 06:58 PM
KRS1 KRS1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
I enjoy it just fine.

Miguel Sano is better than Jose Abreu. I donít need a spreadsheet or a formula to tell me that.

Jose Abreu isnít even better than Edwin Encarnacion, let alone Miguel Sano.
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  #21  
Old 02-14-2020, 07:08 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by KRS1 View Post
Different ways of looking at the game. Each person finds enjoyment in different ways. That's why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors.
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  #22  
Old 02-14-2020, 07:13 PM
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Different ways of looking at the game. Each person finds enjoyment in different ways. That's why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors.
Come on, though. Edwin Encarnacion>Abreu?

There's opinions and then there's ... purposeful, incessant, persistant, negative contrarianism.
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  #23  
Old 02-14-2020, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by KRS1 View Post
Come on, though. Edwin Encarnacion>Abreu?

There's opinions and then there's ... purposeful, incessant, persistant, negative contrarianism.
Different viewpoints on what makes players better/worse. That's all. Personally, I'm glad we have them both.
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  #24  
Old 02-14-2020, 07:59 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Different ways of looking at the game. Each person finds enjoyment in different ways. That's why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors.
They've been stuck on thirty-one for a long time.
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  #25  
Old 02-14-2020, 08:44 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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You've exceeded the thread limit for The Office references.
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  #26  
Old 02-14-2020, 08:48 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Just kidding. There can never be too many Office references.
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  #27  
Old 02-14-2020, 08:50 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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WRC+ the last 6 years:

Encarnacion:
151, 150, 136, 130, 115, 129

Abreu:
167, 131, 121, 139, 115, 117

Encarnacionís down year in 2018 is on par with a typical Abreu year. Encarnacion is better than Abreu. Abreu is probably the most overrated player in White Sox fandom. I get that heís super nice and works really hard, but itís not like his production is anything special.
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  #28  
Old 02-14-2020, 09:46 PM
KRS1 KRS1 is offline
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Sabermetrics are great. Single advanced stats are awesome for making narrow arguments. Myopic and singular focus on flawed, cold algorithms is just another way of sterilizing independent thought and brings questions of literacy and actual baseball insight. I could go on all day on all the ways Jose is simply a ridiculously better all around hitter than Sano or EE, but what’s the point.

Edwin has been a top notch DH. He hits the ball hard, doesn’t fan a ton and walks at a really good rate. Abreu is simply a better hitter and better all around baseball player who brings more value to the diamond. He’s not a GGer but EE is just a batsman.

Like Voodoo said, I’m happy we have both of them, but let’s not delude ourselves into thinking there’s a single GM who would take Edwin over Jose. Baseball players are more than their PLOP+ and evaluation based upon value as actual players of the game is not going away.

Let me also say this, Jose has one of the most impressive spray charts in baseball and let’s not pretend he carries a light bat. So, in the world of saber that doesn’t give a **** about the actual hitting tool, situational or otherwise, sure you can argue 240 hitters are valuable as long as they walk as hit HRs. In the real world, games aren’t played with calculators and Billy Beane is still without a ring.
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  #29  
Old 02-14-2020, 10:35 PM
KRS1 KRS1 is offline
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Just kidding. There can never be too many Office references.
Nice. Was trying to get your link to work, but even the direct site doesn’t want to post. I just watched that episode.
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  #30  
Old 02-15-2020, 03:40 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FielderJones View Post
Spreadsheet blinders on.


How about we can find some other way besides very limited, very imperfect analytics to enjoy the game of baseball.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS1 View Post
Sabermetrics are great. Single advanced stats are awesome for making narrow arguments. Myopic and singular focus on flawed, cold algorithms is just another way of sterilizing independent thought and brings questions of literacy and actual baseball insight. I could go on all day on all the ways Jose is simply a ridiculously better all around hitter than Sano or EE, but whatís the point.

Edwin has been a top notch DH. He hits the ball hard, doesnít fan a ton and walks at a really good rate. Abreu is simply a better hitter and better all around baseball player who brings more value to the diamond. Heís not a GGer but EE is just a batsman.

Like Voodoo said, Iím happy we have both of them, but letís not delude ourselves into thinking thereís a single GM who would take Edwin over Jose. Baseball players are more than their PLOP+ and evaluation based upon value as actual players of the game is not going away.

Let me also say this, Jose has one of the most impressive spray charts in baseball and letís not pretend he carries a light bat. So, in the world of saber that doesnít give a **** about the actual hitting tool, situational or otherwise, sure you can argue 240 hitters are valuable as long as they walk as hit HRs. In the real world, games arenít played with calculators and Billy Beane is still without a ring.
I do think Sabermetrics are a great tool for evaluating players....but various stats can be cherry picked to fit one's side of the argument. So, they don't always give a clear-cut answer to "is player X better than player Y, case closed".

I also agree that one can go overboard with stats to the point of putting blinders on to the entire make up of a particular player. This doesn't mean Hawk's hokey TWTW, either. Abreu and Madrigal seem to be the object of much scorn by some fans as if qualities such as defense, fundamentals, leadership are to be mocked and ridiculed as totally irrelevant because they aren't captured well on a spreadsheet. That can lead to a myopic view of certain players.

Do I think Sano should be ranked higher than Abreu? Eh, it's debatable. Sano has average 96 games played over the last 3 seasons. Abreu has played less than 150 games only twice in 6 MLB seasons. That counts for something. I also wonder how Jose will fare this year sandwiched in a much better lineup.

The Sox obviously view Jose Abreu as valuable beyond his stat lines and it's not purely because of sappy sentimentality, either. They view him as a vital mentor to this team's young Cuban (and Latin American, in general) talent. Beyond his influence in the clubhouse, for all we know, his contract extension may have help persuade Robert to sign his extension as he saw how the Sox treated Jose. Was it worth the Sox committing to pay Jose $14M in 2022? I don't know, but I surely don't think that extension will handcuff the team either and I absolutely don't think it warranted fans continually taking a steaming dump on it ALL.WINTER.LONG.
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