Rebuilding the White Sox

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Harry Chappas

I realize that this is completely unfair but the more I think about it and examine Kenny's complete resume, the more I'm convinced that 2005 was as much dumb luck as it is evidence that he knew what he was doing.

Dear lord, people. Don't we have anything better to do than to find the negatives in the 2005 championship?

Championships are always a mixture of luck and shrewd moves. Have fun trying to figure out the exact percentages, I guess.

[Frater Perdurabo]

While it is fair to question individual moves, I think it's better to withhold judgment on a GM's overall performance until after three full seasons. Hahn is halfway through Year 1, having inherited bad contracts, limited flexibility, injuries, and many inherited veterans inexplicably regressing at baserunning, hitting and fielding fundamentals.

But by all means continue to spout premature overreaction.

[Frater Perdurabo]

Also, sometimes **** just happens all at the same time, and the fault lies with many. Welcome to 2013.

[Tragg]

Originally Posted by TomBradley72

I don't know- based on Keppinger's stats in 2010-2012- that seemed like a reasonable move to plug a position (3rd) where we had no one.

The thing is, Keppinger's been awful defensively throughout his career. But Hahn isn't the first guy to not see (or simply ignore) that from players - the Red Sox signed the defensively horrific Lugo to a big contract a while back.
And it could be that Hahn knew this team wasn't much and wasn't ready to win, so he didn't want to throw a resources into it. As it is, the young pitching has matured nicely (Quintana, Santiago, Jones), but the young hitting deteriorated (Viciedo, Flowers)....those guys weren't busts prior to this year, if they are now. And most of all, we turned into a lousy defensive team that runs bases like a bunch of clowns.

[blandman]

Originally Posted by Tragg

The thing is, Keppinger's been awful defensively throughout his career. But Hahn isn't the first guy to not see (or simply ignore) that from players - the Red Sox signed the defensively horrific Lugo to a big contract a while back.
And it could be that Hahn knew this team wasn't much and wasn't ready to win, so he didn't want to throw a resources into it. As it is, the young pitching has matured nicely (Quintana, Santiago, Jones), but the young hitting deteriorated (Viciedo, Flowers)....those guys weren't busts prior to this year, if they are now. And most of all, we turned into a lousy defensive team that runs bases like a bunch of clowns.

He replaced Morel's defense with Keppinger and AJ's with Flowers. That alone was pretty bone-headed. Expecting them to make up for the offensive loss was part two of his baseball acumen.

Viciedo and Flowers aren't busts, they're never weres. The book on both was career minor leaguer before either got called up. Yeah, they had the power tool early. But neither had the skill to adjust. So, yeah, that's a pretty ****-poor job of evaluating players. Asserting otherwise is getting pretty tiring. It's obvious that the talent evaluators outside our organization were right to say these guys didn't belong on a ball field. It's time to accept that. It's not like there was debate. It was the world against our organization. Whether it's stubborness or a lack of ability to evaluate, it's pretty obvious that those players and our management all need to go for this to stop.

[dickallen15]

Originally Posted by blandman

He replaced Morel's defense with Keppinger and AJ's with Flowers. That alone was pretty bone-headed. Expecting them to make up for the offensive loss was part two of his baseball acumen.

Viciedo and Flowers aren't busts, they're never weres. The book on both was career minor leaguer before either got called up. Yeah, they had the power tool early. But neither had the skill to adjust. So, yeah, that's a pretty ****-poor job of evaluating players. Asserting otherwise is getting pretty tiring. It's obvious that the talent evaluators outside our organization were right to say these guys didn't belong on a ball field. It's time to accept that. It's not like there was debate. It was the world against our organization. Whether it's stubborness or a lack of ability to evaluate, it's pretty obvious that those players and our management all need to go for this to stop.

Were these the same scouts that said Derrick Rose couldn't play and Michael Beasley was a stud? Do you have links to articles saying Viciedo and Flowers couldn't play? And since you ar so tuned into the scouts, why did you ignore what they said about Rondon when you gushed about him several months ago?

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by blandman

He replaced Morel's defense with Keppinger and AJ's with Flowers. That alone was pretty bone-headed. Expecting them to make up for the offensive loss was part two of his baseball acumen.

Viciedo and Flowers aren't busts, they're never weres. The book on both was career minor leaguer before either got called up. Yeah, they had the power tool early. But neither had the skill to adjust. So, yeah, that's a pretty ****-poor job of evaluating players. Asserting otherwise is getting pretty tiring. It's obvious that the talent evaluators outside our organization were right to say these guys didn't belong on a ball field. It's time to accept that. It's not like there was debate. It was the world against our organization. Whether it's stubborness or a lack of ability to evaluate, it's pretty obvious that those players and our management all need to go for this to stop.

You're so wrong on Viciedo it's like you're talking about a different player.

[TomBradley72]

Originally Posted by blandman

He replaced Morel's defense with Keppinger and AJ's with Flowers. That alone was pretty bone-headed. Expecting them to make up for the offensive loss was part two of his baseball acumen.

Viciedo and Flowers aren't busts, they're never weres. The book on both was career minor leaguer before either got called up. Yeah, they had the power tool early. But neither had the skill to adjust. So, yeah, that's a pretty ****-poor job of evaluating players. Asserting otherwise is getting pretty tiring. It's obvious that the talent evaluators outside our organization were right to say these guys didn't belong on a ball field. It's time to accept that. It's not like there was debate. It was the world against our organization. Whether it's stubborness or a lack of ability to evaluate, it's pretty obvious that those players and our management all need to go for this to stop.

Viciedo is 24 yo- and had a very solid season as a 23 yo- he's regressed big time this year- but your assessment just isn't back up with reality

[RCWHITESOX]

If the Sox have to trade Peavy I wish they could put something together with the Angels who are desperate for pitching. I would like to see P Bourjos CF G Richards and Shuck in White Sox uniforms. Bourjos is an excellent CF who has started to come into his own. G Richards could possibly move into the Sox rotation. Shuck has shown he can lead off and is a very good defense OF. Arizona could also be a possibility with Eaton healthy now. Rios should also bring some very good talent from possibly Texas, St Louis, or Oakland.
I also would love them to move Ramirez and DeAza who just can't get their heads into a game. They both have been terrible on the base's and in the field.

[Hitmen77]

Originally Posted by russ99

IMO, This is where we have to give Rick Hahn a little leeway.

He's still cleaning up after Kenny's mess. Once we clear some contracts and he has some room to make moves, then we can judge if he'll be more of the same, or be the young forward-thinking GM he was hired to be.

Agreed. However, Hahn was part of KW's team that gave us this mess. So, it's not like he's totally inheriting someone else's mess. But, even so, I agree - we need to give Hahn some time to see if he can turn this team around.

Originally Posted by Domeshot17

The problem with the theory that Kenny made awesome moves in 2004 to set up a title run in 2005 is that it ignores every year following 2005, which most were a colossal bust.

In 1.5 seasons, we will be wearing a 10 year anniversary patches and remembering the world series team. Some fans are cool with it, can still pop in the DVDs and feel content. Some of us kind of live season by season, and 2005 seems like a distant memory.

Either way, 2005 is long gone. The Sox are one of the 5 worst teams in baseball, as are the Astros. All the Sox have proven since 2005 is that 1 time they could build a winner. Kenny talked about sustained growth, and a new level of expectations, and built teams that could not cash the checks his mouth wrote. Ozzie stopped caring about baseball and started caring about Ozzie, players regressed, prospects busted, and we are left with an 8 year hangover.

While Jerry will be eternally loyal, making this all moot, there is little denying that its time for the Sox brass to prove they have a clue, because we are in baseball hell. One of the least talented rosters in the game, and one of the least talented, thinnest farms as well.

I think one big difference between the 2005 era teams that KW put together and Sox teams of the last 5 years or so is that Kenny was still working with a solid nucleus of home grown talent in the mid 2000s most of whom the Sox acquired before KW assumed GM duties in 2001. IMO, the road to ruin for the Sox over the last 5 or 6 years is that they essentially stopped drafting/developing MLB quality players starting around 2002 and by 2007 or so, the well was running dry. You simply can't build a consistent playoff contender when all you have are go-for-broke and crapshoot moves.

Of course, it's been pointed out many times, that KW was in charge of minor league development for the Sox prior to becoming GM. So, he does get credit for assembling that talent.

[HomeFish]

Here's my Monday morning quarterbacking:

The Sox were doomed by their hot July performance in 2009, 2010, and 2011. Had KW dismantled the team at the deadline in any of those years, we would be in a better place today.

[rdivaldi]

Originally Posted by HomeFish

The Sox were doomed by their hot July performance in 2009, 2010, and 2011. Had KW dismantled the team at the deadline in any of those years, we would be in a better place today.

Not necessarily so. Rebuilding and dismantling is very risky, it's taken the Pirates 20 years to finally assemble a winner. I would also submit that given our inability to acquire young talent in recent years, we might be worse off.

[Boondock Saint]

Originally Posted by HomeFish

Here's my Monday morning quarterbacking:

The Sox were doomed by their hot July performance in 2009, 2010, and 2011. Had KW dismantled the team at the deadline in any of those years, we would be in a better place today.

That doesn't even come close to telling the entire story of how the team got where they are now, but it's absolutely something worth mentioning. Every season, we'd go on a hot streak against the NL, and people would start to hope that we'd turned things around. Shortly afterward, the team would fall back to Earth.

[rdivaldi]

Originally Posted by Stanley

Dear lord, people. Don't we have anything better to do than to find the negatives in the 2005 championship?

Championships are always a mixture of luck and shrewd moves. Have fun trying to figure out the exact percentages, I guess.

Some people just feed off negativity, you can tell who they are based off the past 3 months of posting. Kinda sad actually...

[Harry Chappas]

Originally Posted by Stanley

Dear lord, people. Don't we have anything better to do than to find the negatives in the 2005 championship?

Championships are always a mixture of luck and shrewd moves. Have fun trying to figure out the exact percentages, I guess.

Re-read my post. My feelings about KW's complete body of work don't in any way, shape, or form diminish the joy '05 brought myself and my family. It was a "magical" year. But I think KW's shortcomings as a GM were exposed afterward and are being felt in '13.

IMO, none of this is on Rick Hahn. I think he's going to prove to be a big improvement over his predecessor.