Rebuilding the White Sox

[russ99]

Originally Posted by Dan H

Anyone who thinks this organization can rebuild this team is crazy.

IMO, This is where we have to give Rick Hahn a little leeway.

He's still cleaning up after Kenny's mess. Once we clear some contracts and he has some room to make moves, then we can judge if he'll be more of the same, or be the young forward-thinking GM he was hired to be.

[Frater Perdurabo]

Originally Posted by russ99

IMO, This is where we have to give Rick Hahn a little leeway.

He's still cleaning up after Kenny's mess. Once we clear some contracts and he has some room to make moves, then we can judge if he'll be more of the same, or be the young forward-thinking GM he was hired to be.

Exactly.

[cards press box]

Originally Posted by Dan H

Anyone who thinks this organization can rebuild this team is crazy.

I get it -- that's a reference to the White Flag trade, right? The Sox have made a few shrewd moves since 1997, though. For example, KW's moves in the offseason before 2005 are perhaps the best and most productive deals that any White Sox G.M. has made in one off-season.

So, for now, until we have evidence that Rick Hahn can't rebuild this team, I am going to continue to be "crazy" and hope that the White Sox find some offense to go with their fine pitching staff.

[Tragg]

If Hahn has the freedom to make the deals he wants to make and to deal with whatever teams he wants to deal, and the power to send the scouts to where he wants to send them, then he should be able to do a good job disposing of our veterans and bringing young talent in here.
But I have no knowledge of the front office dynamic to know whether he has that power.

The same year we made the White Flag, the Red Sox dealt Slocumb for 2 Seattle prospects who were rated higher than any we received from the Giants for Roberto Hernandez, who himself was better than Slocumb, plus 2 other starting pitchers. That was because Scheuler wouldn't trade in the American League. Williams never seemed to encumber himself with this particular nonsensical restraint, but Scheuler was gone when Williams took over as well. I'm assuming/hoping that Hahn doesn't have any restraints either.

[Domeshot17]

The problem with the theory that Kenny made awesome moves in 2004 to set up a title run in 2005 is that it ignores every year following 2005, which most were a colossal bust.

In 1.5 seasons, we will be wearing a 10 year anniversary patches and remembering the world series team. Some fans are cool with it, can still pop in the DVDs and feel content. Some of us kind of live season by season, and 2005 seems like a distant memory.

Either way, 2005 is long gone. The Sox are one of the 5 worst teams in baseball, as are the Astros. All the Sox have proven since 2005 is that 1 time they could build a winner. Kenny talked about sustained growth, and a new level of expectations, and built teams that could not cash the checks his mouth wrote. Ozzie stopped caring about baseball and started caring about Ozzie, players regressed, prospects busted, and we are left with an 8 year hangover.

While Jerry will be eternally loyal, making this all moot, there is little denying that its time for the Sox brass to prove they have a clue, because we are in baseball hell. One of the least talented rosters in the game, and one of the least talented, thinnest farms as well.

[Tragg]

Kenny Williams, hopefully, isn't in charge anymore. Let's see what Hahn can do, which I think will be a lot if give resources and free reign.
I thought he got off to a good start with his first trade. Much better than some ceiling 4th outfielder from a AAA roster, which was probably the next best option.

[blandman]

Originally Posted by russ99

IMO, This is where we have to give Rick Hahn a little leeway.

He's still cleaning up after Kenny's mess. Once we clear some contracts and he has some room to make moves, then we can judge if he'll be more of the same, or be the young forward-thinking GM he was hired to be.

Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo

Exactly.

Originally Posted by cards press box

I get it -- that's a reference to the White Flag trade, right? The Sox have made a few shrewd moves since 1997, though. For example, KW's moves in the offseason before 2005 are perhaps the best and most productive deals that any White Sox G.M. has made in one off-season.

So, for now, until we have evidence that Rick Hahn can't rebuild this team, I am going to continue to be "crazy" and hope that the White Sox find some offense to go with their fine pitching staff.

Championing Flyers, Viciedo, et al as the future core when the book was already out on those how bad those guys are is pretty damning evidence in the "I can't do this job" category. Just because someone doesn't have a lot to work with doesn't mean that can't make things worse. It's time to cut Hahn loose, it's obvious he doesn't have the ability to judge young talent.

[Frater Perdurabo]

Originally Posted by blandman

Championing Flyers, Viciedo, et al as the future core when the book was already out on those how bad those guys are is pretty damning evidence in the "I can't do this job" category. Just because someone doesn't have a lot to work with doesn't mean that can't make things worse. It's time to cut Hahn loose, it's obvious he doesn't have the ability to judge young talent.

So should Hahn announce to the media that his position players suck?

Should he really announce that he thinks Viciedo sucks and that Flowers sucks?

What would that accomplish, other than raise your estimation of him?

[Frater Perdurabo]

I have no idea what Hahn thinks, and so therefore I will confine my assessment of his GM acuity based on more than a half season of results.

[Chez]

Originally Posted by Dan H

To me, one thing is obvious. This organization doesn't have the ability or resources to rebuild this team. New ownership is the only solution. The losing will go on for years because that situation is not going to change. Why debate what this team should or shouldn't do? The same people will make the same mistakes. Jerry needs to remove himself but he won't. This team has the potential to become the Pirates of the last 20 years.

This always makes me chuckle -- when people say, "JR has to sell the team" or "step down." Not really. He doesn't have to sell it, unless he wants to. And by all accounts he's not ready to sell and likely won't be ready anytime soon. I'm a below average driver. But no one can make me sell my car, because . . . I own it! JR (for better or worse) ain't going anywhere.

[blandman]

Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo

So should Hahn announce to the media that his position players suck?

Should he really announce that he thinks Viciedo sucks and that Flowers sucks?

What would that accomplish, other than raise your estimation of him?

They were his horses, and he ran with them. He had flexibility in the off-season. He didn't bring back AJ, instead trusted in Flowers, Viciedo, and Keppinger (who are all zero way players). Those were bone-headed, amateur moves. I'm not giving him a pass. There's too much at stake. You think five years is long, ask fans of teams like the Pirates, Cubs, and Royals what happens if the guy behind your rebuild doesn't know how to evaluate talent. As sickening as the whole Theo thing was, I understand why Cubs fans were so giddy about it. They finally got a guy who could rebuild.

[SoxSpeed22]

Originally Posted by blandman

They were his horses, and he ran with them. He had flexibility in the off-season. He didn't bring back AJ, instead trusted in Flowers, Viciedo, and Keppinger (who are all zero way players). Those were bone-headed, amateur moves. I'm not giving him a pass. There's too much at stake. You think five years is long, ask fans of teams like the Pirates, Cubs, and Royals what happens if the guy behind your rebuild doesn't know how to evaluate talent. As sickening as the whole Theo thing was, I understand why Cubs fans were so giddy about it. They finally got a guy who could rebuild.

That's news to me. All I heard about throughout the offseason was how his hands were tied. I would like to see them use free agents to speed up the process though, but not depend on them.

[TomBradley72]

Originally Posted by blandman

They were his horses, and he ran with them. He had flexibility in the off-season. He didn't bring back AJ, instead trusted in Flowers, Viciedo, and Keppinger (who are all zero way players). Those were bone-headed, amateur moves. I'm not giving him a pass. There's too much at stake. You think five years is long, ask fans of teams like the Pirates, Cubs, and Royals what happens if the guy behind your rebuild doesn't know how to evaluate talent. As sickening as the whole Theo thing was, I understand why Cubs fans were so giddy about it. They finally got a guy who could rebuild.

I don't know- based on Keppinger's stats in 2010-2012- that seemed like a reasonable move to plug a position (3rd) where we had no one.

Viciedo in 2012 was a 23 yo LF- who gave better defense than expected with a plus arm- and hit .255-25-78- seemed like the next step for him was to start drawing some walks, raise the average a bit- not unusual for a 23 yo.

Flowers over AJ- not a good move- I think they lost the one guy in the clubhouse that would not have tolerated the dumbass way they've played baseball this year. I've heard AJ was so disliked in the clubhouse that that was part of the decision- but of all the moves- that was the one I'd question.

I'm willing to give Hahn this trading deadline and this offseason to prove himself.

I'd feel better if KW wasn't still lurking around- he needs to go- completely.

[Harry Chappas]

Originally Posted by Domeshot17

The problem with the theory that Kenny made awesome moves in 2004 to set up a title run in 2005 is that it ignores every year following 2005, which most were a colossal bust.

In 1.5 seasons, we will be wearing a 10 year anniversary patches and remembering the world series team. Some fans are cool with it, can still pop in the DVDs and feel content. Some of us kind of live season by season, and 2005 seems like a distant memory.

Either way, 2005 is long gone. The Sox are one of the 5 worst teams in baseball, as are the Astros. All the Sox have proven since 2005 is that 1 time they could build a winner. Kenny talked about sustained growth, and a new level of expectations, and built teams that could not cash the checks his mouth wrote. Ozzie stopped caring about baseball and started caring about Ozzie, players regressed, prospects busted, and we are left with an 8 year hangover.

While Jerry will be eternally loyal, making this all moot, there is little denying that its time for the Sox brass to prove they have a clue, because we are in baseball hell. One of the least talented rosters in the game, and one of the least talented, thinnest farms as well.

I realize that this is completely unfair but the more I think about it and examine Kenny's complete resume, the more I'm convinced that 2005 was as much dumb luck as it is evidence that he knew what he was doing.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by blandman

Championing Flyers, Viciedo, et al as the future core when the book was already out on those how bad those guys are is pretty damning evidence in the "I can't do this job" category. Just because someone doesn't have a lot to work with doesn't mean that can't make things worse. It's time to cut Hahn loose, it's obvious he doesn't have the ability to judge young talent.

When was the last time a GM was fired after half a season? Are you even serious right now?

The reason you champion those types of guys is for the simple fact that that's the best we had, and you have to puff up some players for PR's sake. Plus we had a decent amount of money invested in Viciedo, for example. It's a testament to the sad state of the farm system, as opposed to an indictment of Hahn's scouting ability, IMO.

I hope you regroup during the AS break and come back half way serious, at least.