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  #61  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:14 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by insp View Post
Hahn has failed to do anything much to improve the team's starting pitching and if you remember Scott Ruffcorn, it's a bad idea to bet on the farm.
Scott Ruffcorn was over 25 years ago, time to get over it. While it is true that young pitchers are a very high-risk venture, at least the Sox have had some success developing them.

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Taking part of what was supposed to be Machado money and spending it on Eloy was also stupid since Eloy was already under the team's control.
So locking up a top 3 prospect that is universally regarded as being "can't miss" as well as being a media darling at a very low AAV of $9.3 million, which also includes a year of free agency control as well as 2 buyout years was "stupid"? Might want to re-think that...
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  #62  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:24 AM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is online now
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Originally Posted by insp View Post
Problem is that this was patently obvious even when Rodon was in good health and it did not look like Giolito would be having a breakthrough season.

Hahn has failed to do anything much to improve the team's starting pitching and if you remember Scott Ruffcorn, it's a bad idea to bet on the farm. Taking part of what was supposed to be Machado money and spending it on Eloy was also stupid since Eloy was already under the team's control.

One thing that Hahn should have done and still could do is sign up the proven innings eater James Shields especially since Shields has shown a willingness to sign up at a discount. There are still decent pitchers out there in free agency and no I don't mean the pretty much washed up Dallas Keuchel since Keuchel has refused to even consider signing up at a discount.

It's not too late to either seriously contend for a playoff spot or greatly improve the starting pitching for next season.
Hahn was waiting to figure out how the Machado situation was going to play out before addressing SP. They would have gone out and gotten a Greinke/Kuechel type if they got Manny. I fully expect them to acquire a good veteran pitcher this offseason.
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  #63  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:41 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is online now
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post

I'll stop now...
I was just going to ask what you were hoping to achieve. I have started and deleted 5 posts in this thread. I won't sucked back in. I'm not gonna' do it. You want to beat your head against the wall, go for it, but you won't change anyone's mind in this thread.
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  #64  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:46 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
This simply isn't true. The A's would be making Moncada and Giolito available for trade at the deadline. It's possible Giolito could be held back this year in hopes a Cy Young Award would increase his value. Certainly the A's would lobby for Jimenez to win the Rookie of the Year Award to increase his trade value.

The only resemblance between the Cubs rebuild and the White Sox rebuild is that the teams were bad before they started to get better. Where the Cubs were getting a future Cy Young Award winner and bullpen help for Scott Feldman, the White Sox were trading Chris Sale. At least the White Sox didn't throw money at the problem by signing someone who wasn't worth a $300 million contract, restricting future moves. The White Sox could eventually get Machado, though. Up the road when the Padres are again in rebuild mode and looking to dump Machado's contract, they will be looking for a great prospect.

The Sox already had that selloff from the last core, and when they can't resign players to the necessary deals, I wouldn't doubt that's what they do again toward the end of this run. I doubt it's the Padres that do it, considering they've always been willing to spend and they have the best farm system in baseball. They'll trade off when their run is over, sure...but the Machado deal puts them in a way better position to win a title in their rebuild than where we are.

The dig about Machado not being worth his contract is just wrong. It's an open market deal, and it's the cost of doing business. Not doing business that way is exactly why we're more like the A's and less like the Cubs. It's not a knock, per say. It's just a reality. The Cubs drafted and traded for young players, and when their core started coming up they signed marquee big ticket free agents to record breaking deals to push them to that next step. Does anyone really think that's how we're going to operate? After all the "too rich for our blood" statements about last year's young marquee crop? That just doesn't seem like a reasonable take - or comparison - for me.
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  #65  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:53 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
1. Claiming to be in the mix when you knew the offer wasn't satisfactory is just claiming to be in the mix.

2. You're using AAV as an indicator when years and AAV are what was necessary. In that case, 70 to 80 % on the dollar is correct.

3. Using prior precedent, i.e. Manny, shows this is a possibility.

4. This one I will cede mostly because not even this idiotic ownership would do this one.

$250 million guaranteed versus $300 million guaranteed is actually 83%. But your point is accurate, it was a lowball offer knowing the ask, no matter how you slice it.
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  #66  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:57 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
1) No, they were in negotiations with Machado, that is known to be a fact.
2) AAV is an indicator and a darn good one. Years are important, but what about the option years the Sox offered? Do they count?
3) The original poster made this claim: "Losing Cole to another team who doesn’t treat the MLB free agency process like putting in a lowball bid on a house." That is "thinking with your gut" as there is no evidence or confirmed report of the Sox lowballing anyone.
4) I can't imagine that any semi-intelligent GM would ever make such a statement. Maybe in hindsight, but that would likely be dishonest.

I'll stop now...
Why would the option years be worth anything more than a hearty laugh when another team is going ahead and guaranteeing those years?
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  #67  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:03 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Why would the option years be worth anything more than a hearty laugh when another team is going ahead and guaranteeing those years?


You wouldn't trade your friends for $50 million?
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  #68  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:23 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
I was just going to ask what you were hoping to achieve. I have started and deleted 5 posts in this thread. I won't sucked back in. I'm not gonna' do it. You want to beat your head against the wall, go for it, but you won't change anyone's mind in this thread.
The old saying, "Repeat something enough times and it becomes the truth" is not something I can easily deal with. My head hurts....
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  #69  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:02 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
You want to beat your head against the wall, go for it, but you won't change anyone's mind in this thread.
You can say this about a great number of threads posted on this board.


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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
$250 million guaranteed versus $300 million guaranteed is actually 83%. But your point is accurate, it was a lowball offer knowing the ask, no matter how you slice it.
What?
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  #70  
Old 06-21-2019, 08:40 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by insp View Post
Taking part of what was supposed to be Machado money and spending it on Eloy was also stupid since Eloy was already under the team's control.
The Eloy deal will turn out to be a bargain if he ends up coming even close to his ceiling. This was not “the Machado money” being used on a player they already had under control, it would have been a smart move with or without Machado.

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There are still decent pitchers out there in free agency and no I don't mean the pretty much washed up Dallas Keuchel since Keuchel has refused to even consider signing up at a discount.
Keuchel is signed, he’s starting tonight for the Braves. Do you honestly think James Shields would be a better option? What other FA SPs do you think Hahn should sign who would come in and save the day?
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  #71  
Old 06-21-2019, 08:51 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
The Eloy deal will turn out to be a bargain if he ends up coming even close to his ceiling. This was not “the Machado money” being used on a player they already had under control, it would have been a smart move with or without Machado.



Keuchel is signed, he’s starting tonight for the Braves. Do you honestly think James Shields would be a better option? What other FA SPs do you think Hahn should sign who would come in and save the day?
I don’t think anyone would save the day, but there’s a lot of innings to be eaten.

Honestly, I’d prefer the Sox get creative and consider using an opener, and then use (once healthy) Covey, Bańuelos, and/or Fulmer to pitch 3-4 innings.
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  #72  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:41 AM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Why would the option years be worth anything more than a hearty laugh when another team is going ahead and guaranteeing those years?
Except for the fact that there are no reports of another team guaranteeing the amount of money the Sox offered Machado, what you say is true.
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  #73  
Old 06-21-2019, 11:25 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
I don’t think anyone would save the day, but there’s a lot of innings to be eaten.

Honestly, I’d prefer the Sox get creative and consider using an opener, and then use (once healthy) Covey, Bańuelos, and/or Fulmer to pitch 3-4 innings.
Completely agree, but that's really not Cooper's style and I can't imagine that changing.
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  #74  
Old 06-21-2019, 11:33 AM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is online now
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
The Sox already had that selloff from the last core, and when they can't resign players to the necessary deals, I wouldn't doubt that's what they do again toward the end of this run. I doubt it's the Padres that do it, considering they've always been willing to spend and they have the best farm system in baseball. They'll trade off when their run is over, sure...but the Machado deal puts them in a way better position to win a title in their rebuild than where we are.

The dig about Machado not being worth his contract is just wrong. It's an open market deal, and it's the cost of doing business. Not doing business that way is exactly why we're more like the A's and less like the Cubs. It's not a knock, per say. It's just a reality. The Cubs drafted and traded for young players, and when their core started coming up they signed marquee big ticket free agents to record breaking deals to push them to that next step. Does anyone really think that's how we're going to operate? After all the "too rich for our blood" statements about last year's young marquee crop? That just doesn't seem like a reasonable take - or comparison - for me.
Umm the Padres always have been willing to spend? They just started last year, and only when Preller got there. They were mired in mediocrity far longer than the Sox.

I prefer at this point the Sox rebuild over the Padres. The future core of Moncada, Anderson, Eloy, Robert, Vaughn, Madrigal, Giolito, Cease, and Kopech will be ready sooner and is more expansive than Machado, Tatis Jr, Urias, Renfroe, Paddack, Gore, and a number of question mark SPs. And yes, I don't consider a first baseman (Hosmer), turning 30 this year with a career OPS of .774, a noteworthy part of their rebuild or future. Not to mention the Sox having more financial flexibility over the better part of the next decade.
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  #75  
Old 06-21-2019, 11:47 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Umm the Padres always have been willing to spend? They just started last year, and only when Preller got there. They were mired in mediocrity far longer than the Sox.

I prefer at this point the Sox rebuild over the Padres. The future core of Moncada, Anderson, Eloy, Robert, Vaughn, Madrigal, Giolito, Cease, and Kopech will be ready sooner and is more expansive than Machado, Tatis Jr, Urias, Renfroe, Paddack, Gore, and a number of question mark SPs. And yes, I don't consider a first baseman (Hosmer), turning 30 this year with a career OPS of .774, a noteworthy part of their rebuild or future. Not to mention the Sox having more financial flexibility over the better part of the next decade.

I know people around here try to forget about James Shields, but his nine figure signing back when was a huge contract.
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