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  #301  
Old Today, 06:19 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
We canít use the caveat for his era if weíre saying that Nick Madrigal replicating Nellie Fox would be an acceptable outcome today. Those 4-WAR seasons from Fox would not be 4-WAR seasons in todayís MLB if Madrigal replicated them.
He regularly posted an OPS over .750 in his prime years. Are you saying you wouldn't take that if it included regular gold glove HOF caliber defense?
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  #302  
Old Today, 06:19 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1
Despite what some may think baseball isn't only played by swinging a bat, guy was a multiple Gold Glove winner, ran well, stole some bases, smart base runner, multiple time All-Star (when that actually had meaning), MVP of the league.

Yea, if Nick can come close to that ****ing output the Sox will have a good ****ing player on their hands.

Let's hope it comes to pass.

Not every ****ing player in the lineup has to hit 30 home runs or they aren't worth ****.



Absolute ****ing nonsense.
Once again, no one ever said anything negative about Foxís defense.

What I said was that guys donít win MVP awards with great defense and 5-homer seasons anymore. They are far more likely to ďwinĒ time on the bench.
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  #303  
Old Today, 06:21 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
I called Nellie Fox offensively deficient, because he was offensively deficient. If Nick Madrigal hits like Nellie Fox, that would be a deficient level of offense.
This is why you can't compare players from different eras.

Nellie was the best 2nd baseman of his time, wound up with around 2,700 hits, struck out only 216 times in 10,300 PAs. Won 3 gold gloves, was the 1959 AL MVP, batted over .300 6 times while leading the AL in hits 4 times, played in 15 All Star games and is a member of the Hall Of Fame. He was my favorite player of all time and I never ever heard anyone call him offensively deficient.
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Batting in the second position for the White Sox, number 2, the second baseman Nelson Fox.

Last edited by LITTLE NELL; Today at 06:31 PM.
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  #304  
Old Today, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by voodoochile
He regularly posted an OPS over .750 in his prime years. Are you saying you wouldn't take that if it included regular gold glove HOF caliber defense?
If by “regularly” you mean “half the time,” then yes. Five of Fox’s eleven All-Star seasons featured an OPS north of .763, but six of them featured an OPS south of .723. As far as relativity to the league is concerned, those five seasons north of .763 all featured an OPS+ north of 100, while the other six seasons all featured an OPS+ south of 100.

Last edited by Mohoney; Today at 09:45 PM.
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  #305  
Old Today, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL
This is why you can't compare players from different eras.

Nellie was the best 2nd baseman of his time, wound up with around 2,700 hits, struck out only 216 times in 10,300 PAs. Won 3 gold gloves, was the 1959 AL MVP, batted over .300 6 times while leading the AL in hits 4 times, played in 13 All Star games and is a member of the Hall Of Fame. He was my favorite player of all time and I never ever heard anyone call him offensively deficient.
I wasnít the one who originally made the comparison.
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  #306  
Old Today, 07:50 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
I wasnít the one who originally made the comparison.
I was. And when I say Nellie Fox, I don't mean a statistical copy of vintage Nellie Fox. I mean a player with the same skill set as Fox (contact, batting eye, speed, defense, general baseball IQ) who is going to produce a different set of numbers influenced by changes in the game, but who is still going to be one of the best second basemen in the game.
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  #307  
Old Today, 07:57 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
I was. And when I say Nellie Fox, I don't mean a statistical copy of vintage Nellie Fox. I mean a player with the same skill set as Fox (contact, batting eye, speed, defense, general baseball IQ) who is going to produce a different set of numbers influenced by changes in the game, but who is still going to be one of the best second basemen in the game.
Yeah I would expect given the changes to the height of the mound and the fact the baseball is wound a lot tighter would drive up offensive numbers.
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  #308  
Old Today, 08:07 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Let's all take a step back please. I can split this thread, but Lip is right. People taking a swing at Nellie Fox based on his life time stats and ignoring the nearly decade of high end play he put up during his core years are wrong, period.

He started in the majors at 19 took some time to find his groove and continued to play as his offensive skills eroded, but during his prime years he was flat out productive both offensively and defensively.

Honestly, it shouldn't have to be said and even if you feel that way, taking a swing at one of the White Sox all-time greats should be handled with a LOT more tact than it currently is.

Lip is right this is ****ing ridiculous.
Voodoo: Thanks for cutting me some slack. That response and the seemingly arrogance behind it, totally dismissive just rubbed me the wrong way. It won't happen again, and I apologize to the original poster even thought I though he showed a lack of respect to a great player based purely on an analytic approach to the game (which as has been published numerous times by numerous different publications in the last six months is completely, totally ruining the game and driving fans away...)
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  #309  
Old Today, 08:30 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Yeah I would expect given the changes to the height of the mound and the fact the baseball is wound a lot tighter would drive up offensive numbers.
That, plus modern strength training and diet; video analysis of his swing; statistical analysis of pitchers' tendencies; etc. These advantages are balanced by pitchers being bigger and stronger and having better stuff, and fielders having access to statistical analysis of Madrigal's tendencies.

If Fox were playing today, his numbers would look different, but if he was better than his peers in the fifties he'd be better than his peers today.
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  #310  
Old Today, 09:33 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica
And when I say Nellie Fox, I don't mean a statistical copy of vintage Nellie Fox.
Thanks for the clarification.

You may not be hoping for a statistical copy of vintage Nellie Fox, but it seems like some of the other comments in this thread are hoping for exactly that. Meanwhile, any time someone mentions that the game isnít played like that anymore, and such a level of production would be a detriment rather than an asset, the comment is treated like some sort of unforgivable faux pas.
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