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  #46  
Old 02-26-2018, 05:21 PM
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thomas35forever thomas35forever is offline
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Originally Posted by DonnieDarko View Post
So I guess that erases any doubt about whether the Sox are going to be in the Machado sweepstakes next offseason! Yippe?
If anything, this will hopefully motivate them more to pony up the dough. I can't see how they're not major players now.

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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
I might be more inclined to sign Moustakas now, as we need to add a full season to Burger’a timeline. A 2-3 year deal might be about right.
I would sign Moustakas for one year if the plan is to go after Machado, but a second year might be a safer decision. All I know is we're not going anywhere if Yolmer Sanchez is our long-term answer at third.
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  #47  
Old 02-26-2018, 05:25 PM
CHISOXFAN13 CHISOXFAN13 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
They are dropping like ****ing flies again. Third straight year. I ask again...bad luck or is something else going on in the off season conditioning plan / training staff. Sure "luck" plays a part in it...but three straight years?

The Bears decided to do something about it to try to change that "luck"...maybe the Sox need to consider the same.
How does one condition he body to avoid an Achilles was. I mean, come on. It sucks, but let’s not make statements that make absolutely no sense. It’s complete and luck, not a lack of conditioning/preparation.
  #48  
Old 02-26-2018, 06:18 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by CHISOXFAN13 View Post
How does one condition he body to avoid an Achilles was. I mean, come on. It sucks, but let’s not make statements that make absolutely no sense. It’s complete and luck, not a lack of conditioning/preparation.
That's the point. It has not just been random luck type injuries. It has been serious injuries the past two years. As I said some "luck" is a part of it...some...but not every single one of them. They are adding up aren't they? At one point they had NINE pitchers on the DL LAST YEAR.

I've heard the same stuff (no disrespect towards you) the past few years. My answer is the same...it doesn't matter how healthy the Yankees are or the Brewers or the Blue Jays. That doesn't directly impact the White Sox.

They have lost a ton of players the past two years, especially relief guys.

Compared to their track record that is not normal for them. That's the study published in USA Today last year that showed how good the Sox have been at keeping guys off the DL and it's true they've done a great job...until the past two years and now the first few weeks of this spring.

Something is going on in my opinion beyond the "luck" factor.

Other teams have had the ability to replace guys because of a good farm system, other teams have had the ability to replace guys because they have the money and the farm system to do it. Neither of those conditions have applied to the Sox.

For this rebuild to work, guys must stay healthy, especially the high draft picks and the guys the organization is counting on to produce.

Regarding these injuries, one year, to me, is a fluke...two years a coincidence...THREE YEARS? You've got a ****ing problem.

Just my opinion.

Last edited by Lip Man 1; 02-26-2018 at 06:25 PM.
  #49  
Old 02-26-2018, 06:51 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Yes, Lip, they have had a regression to the mean regarding injuries over the last 2-3 years, after an historically long period of losing relatively fewer players to relatively fewer injuries.

However, there’s another factor at play.

Three, five, ten, 17, years ago very few of us would be paying attention to injuries among prospects. We were in “win now” mode and focused on our major league players. We lost players like Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, David Wells, Jake Peavy, Carlos Quentin, Joe Crede, Jose Contreras, and John Danks to major injuries in years when they were, or we were counting on them to be, significant contributors.
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  #50  
Old 02-26-2018, 06:55 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
That's the point. It has not just been random luck type injuries. It has been serious injuries the past two years. As I said some "luck" is a part of it...some...but not every single one of them. They are adding up aren't they? At one point they had NINE pitchers on the DL LAST YEAR.

I've heard the same stuff (no disrespect towards you) the past few years. My answer is the same...it doesn't matter how healthy the Yankees are or the Brewers or the Blue Jays. That doesn't directly impact the White Sox.

They have lost a ton of players the past two years, especially relief guys.

Compared to their track record that is not normal for them. That's the study published in USA Today last year that showed how good the Sox have been at keeping guys off the DL and it's true they've done a great job...until the past two years and now the first few weeks of this spring.

Something is going on in my opinion beyond the "luck" factor.

Other teams have had the ability to replace guys because of a good farm system, other teams have had the ability to replace guys because they have the money and the farm system to do it. Neither of those conditions have applied to the Sox.

For this rebuild to work, guys must stay healthy, especially the high draft picks and the guys the organization is counting on to produce.

Regarding these injuries, one year, to me, is a fluke...two years a coincidence...THREE YEARS? You've got a ****ing problem.

Just my opinion.
So it sounds like in your opinion either the training staff has been lax or the players are not doing their job with stretching and any other exercises the training staff has prescribed. If it's not bad luck or the team is not jinxed, that is all that remains. I'm still going with really horrible luck.
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Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 02-26-2018 at 07:01 PM.
  #51  
Old 02-26-2018, 07:05 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Until I hear that there was a lack of conditioning involved, I'll go with bad engineering and bad luck.

Get well soon!
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  #52  
Old 02-26-2018, 07:25 PM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Very disappointing. It sucks to see Burger's season over already and to have him fall a year behind in development. What are the long-term recovery prospects from this kind of injury? If he's expected to make a full recovery in a year, then it may suck but it's not the end of the world.

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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
That's the point. It has not just been random luck type injuries. It has been serious injuries the past two years. As I said some "luck" is a part of it...some...but not every single one of them. They are adding up aren't they? At one point they had NINE pitchers on the DL LAST YEAR.

I've heard the same stuff (no disrespect towards you) the past few years. My answer is the same...it doesn't matter how healthy the Yankees are or the Brewers or the Blue Jays. That doesn't directly impact the White Sox.

They have lost a ton of players the past two years, especially relief guys.

Compared to their track record that is not normal for them. That's the study published in USA Today last year that showed how good the Sox have been at keeping guys off the DL and it's true they've done a great job...until the past two years and now the first few weeks of this spring.

Something is going on in my opinion beyond the "luck" factor.

Other teams have had the ability to replace guys because of a good farm system, other teams have had the ability to replace guys because they have the money and the farm system to do it. Neither of those conditions have applied to the Sox.

For this rebuild to work, guys must stay healthy, especially the high draft picks and the guys the organization is counting on to produce.

Regarding these injuries, one year, to me, is a fluke...two years a coincidence...THREE YEARS? You've got a ****ing problem.

Just my opinion.
Lip, we went over this umpteen times last season. The Sox number of injuries in 2017 was on par with the league average. We Looks like they were around the middle of the pack in 2016, too. There's nothing snakebit about that and it's not an indictment on Sox conditioning.
https://www.fangraphs.com/tht/2016-d...jury-analysis/

Yes, people are remembering the years when the Sox were at or near the bottom of the league (in a good way) in number of injuries. Like Frater P said, the Sox are regressing to the mean. They can't condition their way out of Achilles injuries.

Last edited by GoSox2K3; 02-26-2018 at 08:50 PM.
  #53  
Old 02-26-2018, 08:42 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by DonnieDarko View Post
So I guess that erases any doubt about whether the Sox are going to be in the Machado sweepstakes next offseason! Yippe?
In Hawk voice: "that didn't take long."

Come on guys. If we are going to continue dreaming up this Machado thing at least know and be informed of what position he has specifically said he is going to play from here out. SS. That's it. His days of playing 3B for the foreseeable future are done.

Let's be informed as a fanbase.
  #54  
Old 02-26-2018, 09:23 PM
TommyJohn TommyJohn is online now
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Jake Burger at least broke the pattern. Usually Sox third basemen wait until they are a couple of years into a promising career before getting derailed by injuries, and even then it's always the back (Pete Ward, Bill Melton, Joe Crede).
  #55  
Old 02-26-2018, 10:20 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
Lip, we went over this umpteen times last season. The Sox number of injuries in 2017 was on par with the league average. We Looks like they were around the middle of the pack in 2016, too. There's nothing snakebit about that and it's not an indictment on Sox conditioning.

https://www.fangraphs.com/tht/2016-d...jury-analysis/

Yes, people are remembering the years when the Sox were at or near the bottom of the league (in a good way) in number of injuries. Like Frater P said, the Sox are regressing to the mean. They can't condition their way out of Achilles injuries.
As I'll repeat for the umpteenth time that I give a rats ass how many injuries the Yankees (who can buy their way around them) or the Dodgers (who can trade out of their stacked farm system around them) have.

It's about the White Sox.

An organization that wasn't willing to buy their way around them and couldn't trade out of a farm system around them.

Now that they've decided to rebuild, THE VERY LAST THING THEY NEED are injuries to the kids they are pinning their hopes around.

Like a story in South Side Sox said today, "if the rebuild doesn't work the Sox will win a World Series again...in 2093." (Tongue in cheek of course but the point being if this doesn't work they are royally and completely screwed.)

Burdi, Rodon, Burger, Adolfo. Yep...ALL bad luck! (LOL)

Just wondering for the masses. If this **** goes on for another year or two at what point will you be willing to concede it's a little more than just "bad luck?" Like I said, just wondering.
  #56  
Old 02-26-2018, 10:21 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
So it sounds like in your opinion either the training staff has been lax or the players are not doing their job with stretching and any other exercises the training staff has prescribed. If it's not bad luck or the team is not jinxed, that is all that remains. I'm still going with really horrible luck.
"Luck is the residue of design" -Branch Rickey.

This is a real sore point with me because so much, SO MUCH is riding on the outcome.

Yes I think there's something going on here over and above luck. Maybe its complacency which has been a hallmark of an organization that thinks change is a dirty word.

Same ownership, same front office, same medical and training personnel, same grounds crew and on and on and on for years. Oh yea, same results too usually on the field.

My point is what would it hurt to bring in some new blood in the medical / training staff? Not "fire everybody" but bring in some new folks...new ideas, new evaluations, new ways to approach taking care of the most precious commodity, the players themselves?

Remember there have been questions surrounding the Sox medical / training staff (I don't implicate anyone directly just using those areas in general) since the new century began. Kenny didn't have the press conference where he defended the team doctors during the Shouldergate controversy simply to pass the time. Remember the whole Ordonez controversy? How about the whole Rodon deal last year? The secrecy, the seemingly unknown reasons he kept having the inflammation. They eventually had to open him up because they couldn't find anything. Oh. Those are just off the top of my head.

The future is riding on keeping these kids, the future, healthy and able to produce. That's the bottom line and for whatever reason or reasons, that's not off to a great start. Not with four now of them suffering serious injuries already... Rodon, Burdi, Adolpho and Burger.

Last edited by Lip Man 1; 02-26-2018 at 11:16 PM.
  #57  
Old 02-27-2018, 01:29 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
As I'll repeat for the umpteenth time that I give a rats ass how many injuries the Yankees (who can buy their way around them) or the Dodgers (who can trade out of their stacked farm system around them) have.

It's about the White Sox.
Which would be fine, IF the White Sox existed in a vacuum. They don’t.

The injury rate here is nothing out of the ordinary. Injuries are part of the game and should be expected. Throwing a baseball as fast as humanly possible (or with as much movement as possible) several thousand times a year is one of the most awkward movements in sports.

Do you have any proof whatsoever that the medical people are doing something wrong?
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  #58  
Old 02-27-2018, 04:11 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
The future is riding on keeping these kids, the future, healthy and able to produce. That's the bottom line and for whatever reason or reasons, that's not off to a great start. Not with four now of them suffering serious injuries already... Rodon, Burdi, Adolpho and Burger.
Lip, you make great points. I'd love to know how these guys prepare for a season in the off-season. Do the young players warm-up before games? All games?

Do the outfielders long toss anymore? What conditioning procedure are in place during the off season, pre-season and over the long haul?

As for the pitching, I am with you. I believe that questions should be asked.

Last edited by Grzegorz; 02-27-2018 at 04:29 AM.
  #59  
Old 02-27-2018, 05:15 AM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
"Luck is the residue of design" -Branch Rickey.

This is a real sore point with me because so much, SO MUCH is riding on the outcome.

Yes I think there's something going on here over and above luck. Maybe its complacency which has been a hallmark of an organization that thinks change is a dirty word.

Same ownership, same front office, same medical and training personnel, same grounds crew and on and on and on for years. Oh yea, same results too usually on the field.

My point is what would it hurt to bring in some new blood in the medical / training staff? Not "fire everybody" but bring in some new folks...new ideas, new evaluations, new ways to approach taking care of the most precious commodity, the players themselves?

Remember there have been questions surrounding the Sox medical / training staff (I don't implicate anyone directly just using those areas in general) since the new century began. Kenny didn't have the press conference where he defended the team doctors during the Shouldergate controversy simply to pass the time. Remember the whole Ordonez controversy? How about the whole Rodon deal last year? The secrecy, the seemingly unknown reasons he kept having the inflammation. They eventually had to open him up because they couldn't find anything. Oh. Those are just off the top of my head.

The future is riding on keeping these kids, the future, healthy and able to produce. That's the bottom line and for whatever reason or reasons, that's not off to a great start. Not with four now of them suffering serious injuries already... Rodon, Burdi, Adolpho and Burger.
Are you suggesting that the Sox tell the whole world about the internal workings of any individual player’s injury? That seems counter-intuitive to me.

As for Burger’s injury, nothing about it suggests negligence on anyone’s part with the possible exception of the player himself. Casting suspicion on the Sox staff for the rash of injuries the past two years is like criticizing a pitcher for giving up 5 runs in his past two starts when he had a 2.25 ERA in his previous 15 starts, the best stretch in the league during that time.
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  #60  
Old 02-27-2018, 06:02 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by asindc View Post
Are you suggesting that the Sox tell the whole world about the internal workings of any individual player’s injury? That seems counter-intuitive to me.
Lip is forgetting that HIPAA regulates the level of detail that can be released to the public about player injuries. But because he doesn’t care about context or compare what the Sox do to other teams, he concludes that the Sox alone are being secretive.

Had the Sox been mired in a good old boy system regarding scouting, player development, hitting philosophy, etc. for decades? Yes. But it has been changing over the past few years.

I too have concerns with Jerry Reinsdorf as owner, but essentially to imply that he allows a culture to persist in which players are given substandard medical treatment after being injured at higher rates from substandard training practices, is beyond the pale.
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