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  #61  
Old 09-25-2018, 04:43 PM
Sargeant79 Sargeant79 is offline
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Man...some of the responses in this thread kill me.

Moncada may wind up being a bust. But to have formed that opinion already at his age and at this stage in his career is preposterous. It will probably be 2020 before we truly begin to know what Moncada is.
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  #62  
Old 09-25-2018, 04:49 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sargeant79 View Post
Man...some of the responses in this thread kill me.

Moncada may wind up being a bust. But to have formed that opinion already at his age and at this stage in his career is preposterous. It will probably be 2020 before we truly begin to know what Moncada is.
I'm guessing, if I went digging, some of the same people saying Moncada is toast have some old posts penciling guys into future seasons' lineups and rotations who haven't played a game above AA yet.
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  #63  
Old 09-25-2018, 06:03 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Strikeouts and batting average are meaningless stats as there are tons of better statistics out there that tell the true story of a player's worth.

Strikeouts and batting average reflect how a player does as a hitter. It is fashionable to place less value on a players' ability to hit.

The direction teams are going is minimizing the importance of and reducing the quality of hitting and making Major League Baseball appreciably less fun to watch, much as the NBA degraded in 1950s before Danny Biasone lobbied for shot clock.

In this decade, two MLB teams that finished last in their league in home runs and had the fewest strikeouts went to the World Series. But developing solid, contact producing situational hitters was not the message the rest of baseball took and ran with from the brief success of the Kansas City Royals after their decades of futility.

As for Moncada, I would be happy to see him take even a vaguely scientific approach to hitting to making contact. If Moncada develops into a star, it won't be because he's only 23. It will be because he has figured out that he needs to change his approach to hitting. Maybe it is too early to judge Moncada because he still has time to learn how to hit, although he doesn't appear to be on the right track.

If you strike out about three times more than you walk, if your strikeouts total more than your hits and your walks combined, you don't have a very good eye for the strike zone. Your futility is indefensible and isn't fun to watch. If you're not actually hitting, making me watch you take pitches is just wasting my time.
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  #64  
Old 09-25-2018, 06:18 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog
The direction teams are going is minimizing the importance of and reducing the quality of hitting and making Major League Baseball appreciably less fun to watch
This is subjective. Personally, I would rather shave my ass and sit in a bourbon barrel than watch major league hitters bunt and try to hit opposite-field grounders. However, I realize that many people do not share that sentiment, and thatís OK.
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  #65  
Old 09-25-2018, 06:55 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
This is subjective. Personally, I would rather shave my ass and sit in a bourbon barrel than watch major league hitters bunt and try to hit opposite-field grounders. However, I realize that many people do not share that sentiment, and that’s OK.
The Rays did exactly that this year and have had a very nice season and will win 90+ games, Joey Wendle, Matt Duffy and Mallex Smith have been a joy to watch this year.
I guess you would have hated the Go Go White Sox years when they had 17 straight winning seasons playing what Ozzie would call Small Ball. I realize it was a different era but it was a lot of to watch and way better than watching guys strike out at alarming rates.
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  #66  
Old 09-25-2018, 07:04 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL
The Rays did exactly that this year and have had a very nice season and will win 90+ games, Joey Wendle, Matt Duffy and Mallex Smith have been a joy to watch this year.
I guess you would have hated the Go Go White Sox years when they had 17 straight winning seasons playing what Ozzie would call Small Ball. I realize it was a different era but it was a lot of to watch and way better than watching guys strike out at alarming rates.
Yeah, I donít think I would have enjoyed staring up at the far superior Yankees year after year after year.
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  #67  
Old 09-25-2018, 07:14 PM
shes shes is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
What I think makes Moncada's struggles particularly frustrating is when you look around the majors and see how guys like Torres, Soto, Acuna (and to a lesser extent guys like Matt Chapman) have been able to more or less hit the ground running.
Chapman's actually been the best of the bunch. In a different year he'd be getting strong MVP consideration.
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  #68  
Old 09-25-2018, 07:15 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Yeah, I don’t think I would have enjoyed staring up at the far superior Yankees year after year after year.
Different era, in the system we have now the Sox would have made the playoffs about 10-11 times in those years and we did beat the Yanks in 1959 and made to the WS and we also finished ahead of them in 65,66 and 67. It was a lot more fun than watching the crap we've seen for the last 10 years. The Sox were very well respected also, many articles about Nellie, Minnie, Looie and Billy in all the Baseball magazines of the day, I remember attending a game at Shea Stadium in 1967 and got to talking to some Mets fans and they remarked how the Sox always were always yearly contenders. These days a lot of fans around the country hardly know we exist.
BTW Nellie Fox made 10,300 plate appearances in his career and struck out 216 times, Yoan will probably top that number this year. I think the fans all over MLB are sick of this new style of ball as attendance figures are down, total attendance this year will be the lowest since 2003.

Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 09-25-2018 at 07:43 PM.
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  #69  
Old 09-25-2018, 08:05 PM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
This is subjective. Personally, I would rather shave my ass and sit in a bourbon barrel than watch major league hitters bunt and try to hit opposite-field grounders. However, I realize that many people do not share that sentiment, and thatís OK.
Striving to make more contact does not have primarily involve bunting or going the other way. Making contact means just that, focusing on hitting the *&%# ball because if you strike out, you fail to do anything productive. In the extremely rare instances when you reach base despite striking out, it involves the other team making a mistake. If you hit the ball fair, chances are much, much better that you donít have to count on your opponentís mistake to make something good happen.

You know who wasnít trying to hit HRs but focused more on making good, consistent contact? Hint: He wore #35.
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  #70  
Old 09-25-2018, 08:18 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by asindc
You know who wasnít trying to hit HRs but focused more on making good, consistent contact? Hint: He wore #35.
Setting the bar a little high, arenít we?
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  #71  
Old 09-25-2018, 08:23 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL
I think the fans all over MLB are sick of this new style of ball as attendance figures are down, total attendance this year will be the lowest since 2003.
How is that whole ďattendanceĒ thing working out for that banjo-hitting Rays team? People donít seem to be too interested in that style, either.
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  #72  
Old 09-25-2018, 08:40 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
How is that whole “attendance” thing working out for that banjo-hitting Rays team? People don’t seem to be too interested in that style, either.
Bad example, TB fans for the most part are not willing to make the trek down to St. Pete to watch games in the worst stadium in MLB, who can blame them. I might be naive but when the Rays get their new stadium in the Ybor City/ Channelside district they will draw just fine. Their fan base is the north, east and west parts of the Metro area. The Lightning has gone about 4 now years with nightly sell outs and Amalie arena is about a half mile away from the new ballpark site.
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  #73  
Old 09-25-2018, 08:44 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL
Bad example, TB fans for the most part are not willing to make the trek down to St. Pete to watch games in the worst stadium in MLB, who can blame them. I might be naive but when the Rays get their new stadium in the Ybor City/ Channelside district they will draw just fine. Their fan base is the north, east and west parts of the Metro area. The Lightning has gone about 4 now years with nightly sell outs and Amalie arena is about a half mile away from the new ballpark site.
You specifically used the Rays as an example of a style of baseball that fans supposedly would rather see.
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  #74  
Old 09-25-2018, 08:51 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Camilo, carry-on View Post
Using that logic, if a player hits .150 and strikes out 300 times in a season, it's meaningless. I would have to disagree.
I have tried and tried and tried and tried in many ways to get a reasoned debate going but you're talking to true believers and all you need to know is they're smart and you're dumb. Name any old time stat and someone is going tell you that stat doesn't count. You can't even get them to listen to you if you reasonably state that all stats matter in context. Hey "all stats matter," maybe I'll found a new group. Some are so enamored that they'll tell you wins and losses don't matter it's Pythagorean or SRS or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Sargeant79 View Post
Man...some of the responses in this thread kill me.

Moncada may wind up being a bust. But to have formed that opinion already at his age and at this stage in his career is preposterous. It will probably be 2020 before we truly begin to know what Moncada is.
Why should it take that long? I think what you're seeing is pretty much what you're going to get. Of course I hope I'm wrong but he's going to have to work hard and change his approach.

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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
I'm guessing, if I went digging, some of the same people saying Moncada is toast have some old posts penciling guys into future seasons' lineups and rotations who haven't played a game above AA yet.
I don't know about that. I think there's been lots of excitement and speculation among the pro rebuild crowd. I'm not pointing this out to be critical, it can be fun to plot out the future if you're optimistic about it.

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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Strikeouts and batting average reflect how a player does as a hitter. It is fashionable to place less value on a players' ability to hit.

The direction teams are going is minimizing the importance of and reducing the quality of hitting and making Major League Baseball appreciably less fun to watch, much as the NBA degraded in 1950s before Danny Biasone lobbied for shot clock.

In this decade, two MLB teams that finished last in their league in home runs and had the fewest strikeouts went to the World Series. But developing solid, contact producing situational hitters was not the message the rest of baseball took and ran with from the brief success of the Kansas City Royals after their decades of futility.

As for Moncada, I would be happy to see him take even a vaguely scientific approach to hitting to making contact. If Moncada develops into a star, it won't be because he's only 23. It will be because he has figured out that he needs to change his approach to hitting. Maybe it is too early to judge Moncada because he still has time to learn how to hit, although he doesn't appear to be on the right track.

If you strike out about three times more than you walk, if your strikeouts total more than your hits and your walks combined, you don't have a very good eye for the strike zone. Your futility is indefensible and isn't fun to watch. If you're not actually hitting, making me watch you take pitches is just wasting my time.
Like I've said, I've tried and tried and tried. The tablets have come down from the mountain and the other side ain't listening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
This is subjective. Personally, I would rather shave my ass and sit in a bourbon barrel than watch major league hitters bunt and try to hit opposite-field grounders. However, I realize that many people do not share that sentiment, and thatís OK.
Little Nell and asindc have written excellent replies. In any case that attitude is helping to kill baseball. I'd rather watch a baseball game that incorporates many facets of this great game than watch Adam Dunn, Rob Deer or even Yoan Moncada try to kill the ball and then time and time again slink back to the dugout after yet another K. What is the main demographic of baseball fandom today? Men aged 50+? The younger generations don't take to professional sports like Boomers and Gen Xers do. One more thing. The Rays could go undefeated in the regular season and then sweep the playoffs and they'd probably still have lousy attendance.

Perhaps another cyber exercise in futility and it might even get me in trouble but man I feel so much better now.
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  #75  
Old 09-25-2018, 08:57 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
You specifically used the Rays as an example of a style of baseball that fans supposedly would rather see.
What don't you understand about them having a stadium issue? Imagine if Sox park was around where the Chicago Skyway is, how much worse would Sox attendance be then, it would be equivalent to where the Rays play now, besides that, St. Pete is a huge snowbird town, almost a ghost town in the summer.

Last year the Rays hit the most HRs in their history, 228 to be exact and they finished 80-82, this year they will win over 90 games. Attendance is about the same as last year. Their TV ratings are very high so the interest is there. Management did a huge housecleaning and traded away the likes of Longoria, Dickerson and Morrison and decided to go with a contact type of game with the hit and run, lots of hitting to the opposite field, bunts and stolen bases. On the field, they made the right move.

Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 09-25-2018 at 09:06 PM.
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