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  #76  
Old 05-16-2018, 11:50 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
I think people didn't really grasp just how far away those goalposts should have been to start with, and that's been pretty evident from discussion on these boards. I don't blame them; this franchise has not really gone through this process before, and unless you really take a look at the teams who have (and have been successful), it's hard to point to realistic progress points.
Yep, no goalposts have been moved except in some fans' expectations. This process is still on track as far as I can tell despite the record so far this year and the struggles of Fulmer (who was with the Sox before the rebuild began) and Giolito.

Another reason to not blame fans for being impatient is that, for us, it's more than just since Dec. 2016. This team has given us season after season of pretty much unwatchable baseball since 2011 (except for 2012 up until mid Sept.). We've been putting up with crap from the on-field performance of this team for a long time.

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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
Didn't the rebuild begin when Moncada, Giolito, and Lopez were brought up? So August of 2017. By that logic we have until 2021 to begin winning.
We are one full season and 38 games into the rebuild. That's not very far into this process. But we didn't even make the Quintana and Frasier/Robertson trade until July last year and not of our new pieces even debuted until Moncada came up.

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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
The reason why I am not too worried about it is that things will look completely different beginning next year. You will have Eloy and Kopech up. You get rid of dead ends like Gonzalez, Shields, and Fulmer. Possibly even Giolito if he doesn't perform. You have Stephen's and Dunning ready to take the mantle when necessary.

The outfield is where we are not close, and that part sucks. We probably have to wait until 2020 to Have our finalized version of that outfield.

As t the moment, you are beginning to see the core of a decent bullpen in Beck, Fry, Jones, and Rondon. You have Burdi coming off the mend, Lambert in the minors, and Vieria who will be up this year. The bullpen should be decent to above average come the end of the season.

I am not saying this team wins 80 games next year, but I do expect this to be the last miserable season we have.

Granted, the one part that bothers me is that this team isn't good at the fundamentals. So far, they fail at rhe defensive side dar more than they should. That's something that needs to be fixed or contention will be a serious issue.
My guess is that the turnaround from lousy, 100-loss territory team to respectable and maybe even WC contender will be fairly quick. That wave of talent from the minors is still coming and there's no indication yet that it has been distracted or delayed.
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  #77  
Old 05-16-2018, 11:58 AM
DonnieDarko DonnieDarko is offline
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My guess is that the turnaround from lousy, 100-loss territory team to respectable and maybe even WC contender will be fairly quick. That wave of talent from the minors is still coming and there's no indication yet that it has been distracted or delayed.
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  #78  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:11 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Alec Hansen
Oh no doubt, there have been some disappointing injuries. At least Alec Hansen is now back to extended spring training and is expected to return next month. Losing Jake Burger for a year and then having him re-tear his injury is a huge disappointment. We also have lost Burdi for a year and a half to TJS.

Still, that doesn't mean the wave of talent isn't on track. It's almost inevtiatble that some of top 20 guys would have injury set backs or would fizzle out. The only injury so far that looks like it might totally derail a top prospect's chances is Burger's.
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  #79  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
72-90 in 2019 would be fine with me.
And based upon the looks of things here in 2018, 72-90 in 2019 might qualify as "significant improvement."

If this year's club goes 54-108, and it might, 72-90 is an 18-game improvement.

I guess each person could have a different definition of what "significant" means.
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  #80  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:52 PM
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A couple other points to add: The payroll space that's available doesn't necessarily have to be used on a mega-star, and frankly, I don't think the Sox will be able to attract those types of free agents anyway. You could spend $30M a year on Manny Machado, sure, but you also could use that money to acquire three or four pretty good players via free agency or trade. I know as a fan base we've gotten burned by Adam Dunn and some other free-agent busts through the years, but past failures do not mean the Sox should shy away from pursuing free agents where there is a need, and they should be looking to add players who fit their long-term puzzle as soon as next offseason.

Secondly, my "moving the goalposts" comment wasn't targeted at any one poster, or any one Sox fan anywhere. It was more a commentary on the absurdity of the general jolly attitude about rebuilding. I've never been real excited for this, because I knew we would be in for a long, tough road and some very dark days as a fan base. Those dark days are here, and they are going to stay here for a while. When the rebuild first started, I made comments about that, and I was told not to worry, because everything would be awesome by 2019, and we would be winning a championship in 2020. That is nonsense and always has been nonsense. Now, more people are starting to see the truth in that, and I guess I'm a combination of amused and aggravated by the whole thing.

To the credit of Rick Hahn and others in the Sox organization, they have never put a timeline on this thing publicly, nor should they. I just think the whole, "Jolly, jolly, ain't rebuilding fun?" wing of our fan base deserves a swift kick in the nuts. This isn't fun at all. I'll put up with this the rest of this year and next, but the clouds need to start to clear in 2020. Note, I'm not saying we should be a playoff team in 2020. But if the Sox are still horse**** then, then we have a problem. It should not take until 2022 to return to contention. It just shouldn't.

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  #81  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:02 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by JB98
I just think the whole, "Jolly, jolly, ain't rebuilding fun?" wing of our fan base deserves a swift kick in the nuts.
Why?

If we "Jolly jolly" rebuild fans are supposed to let everybody on the other side hem and haw and complain ad nauseum about all the losing the Sox are doing in year two of a rebuild, then the least we should get is reciprocity.
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  #82  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Why?

If we "Jolly jolly" rebuild fans are supposed to let everybody on the other side hem and haw and complain ad nauseum about all the losing the Sox are doing in year two of a rebuild, then the least we should get is reciprocity.
You have the right to state your opinion.
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  #83  
Old 05-16-2018, 01:51 PM
DonnieDarko DonnieDarko is offline
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A couple other points to add: The payroll space that's available doesn't necessarily have to be used on a mega-star, and frankly, I don't think the Sox will be able to attract those types of free agents anyway. You could spend $30M a year on Manny Machado, sure, but you also could use that money to acquire three or four pretty good players via free agency or trade. I know as a fan base we've gotten burned by Adam Dunn and some other free-agent busts through the years, but past failures do not mean the Sox should shy away from pursuing free agents where there is a need, and they should be looking to add players who fit their long-term puzzle as soon as next offseason.
I will agree with you on all but the free agent comment: if you look at the FA class of 2019, it's Harper, Machado, Donaldson, Kimbrel, Keuchel (who Houston would have to be insane to let walk, even if he'll be turning 30), and then a whole lotta nope. Everyone else who is potentially worth signing is on the wrong side of 30. And 2020 is even worse. I didn't look at 2021, but I imagine it's not much better. This fits the general trend in MLB today, where the FA market is nowhere near as deep as it was in the 90s and 2000s.

If the Sox are *ever* going to spend on the FA market for this rebuild, they need to spend big, and they need to spend in 2019. Machado also happens to fit both a need (SS/3B) and the long term puzzle (he's one of the best players in the game--he fits into just about every team's puzzle).
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  #84  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:45 PM
jcw218 jcw218 is offline
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What's being overlooked here is the next two drafts. It is imperative for the the rebuild that they nail the 2018 and 2019 drafts. This is their chance to come away with one or two star players. If they are for real, they could make things interesting.
As for the international market, I think they could do a little more this year, since there is a lot more money to spend. Personally, I think Robert would've been a top 5 pick had he been in last year's draft, so I don't really blame them for going for quality over quantity.
For me, contending for a playoff spot in 2021 is my timeframe. A lot of the important guys are still somewhat far away (W-S), and if they take the natural progression, they will be with the big club in 2021 or 2022. I would be ok with being slightly below .500 in 2019.
Because they shattered their international budget for the 2016/2017 signing period in which they signed Robert, the White Sox are only allowed to sign international players subject to the international bonus pool system for a maximum signing bonus of 300k for the next two signing periods. So, for the 2017/2018 and 2018/2019 signing periods which begin on 7/2, the White Sox are in the penalty box so to speak.

Last edited by jcw218; 05-16-2018 at 05:16 PM. Reason: add signing period for Robert and what the next 2 signing periods were
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  #85  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:39 PM
DonnieDarko DonnieDarko is offline
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Originally Posted by jcw218 View Post
Because they shattered their international budget for the signing period in which they signed Robert, the White Sox are only allowed to sign international players for a maximum signing bonus of i believe 300k for the next two signing periods, whichever they are.
Wait, I thought it was just one signing period?
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  #86  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:50 PM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is offline
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Just curious, who is saying jolly jolly rebuild is fun? With any luck, this will be the worst part of the rebuild and some of us who were for the rebuild anticipated the beginning of the year to suck. We're not even two months in, and we're already turning on each other.
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  #87  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:10 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by SoxSpeed22 View Post
Just curious, who is saying jolly jolly rebuild is fun? With any luck, this will be the worst part of the rebuild and some of us who were for the rebuild anticipated the beginning of the year to suck. We're not even two months in, and we're already turning on each other.
Nobody. It's the usual straw man position to make one's own side sound more reasonable.

The rebuild sucks, but it's a necessary evil. Complaining about it daily doesn't make it change.
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  #88  
Old 05-16-2018, 05:37 PM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Originally Posted by SoxSpeed22 View Post
Just curious, who is saying jolly jolly rebuild is fun? With any luck, this will be the worst part of the rebuild and some of us who were for the rebuild anticipated the beginning of the year to suck. We're not even two months in, and we're already turning on each other.
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Nobody. It's the usual straw man position to make one's own side sound more reasonable.

The rebuild sucks, but it's a necessary evil. Complaining about it daily doesn't make it change.
That's how I feel about it. Don't get me wrong, Sox fans are certainly entitled to their opinion that the rebuild is a terrible idea, management doesn't deserve credit for squat, they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and people who are clearing their calendars for October 2020 are being unrealistic.

But, I don't recall anyone saying they're actually having fun as a Sox fan right now.....and people following the success of various prospects in the minors isn't the same as them having a happy happy fun time right now.

Again, this isn't a slam at anyone who thinks this whole rebuild endeavor stinks to high heaven and in no way is an attempt to silence them or badger them into submission about getting on the rebuild bandwagon. But, let's not mis-characterize what other fans are saying.
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  #89  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:42 AM
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That's how I feel about it. Don't get me wrong, Sox fans are certainly entitled to their opinion that the rebuild is a terrible idea, management doesn't deserve credit for squat, they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and people who are clearing their calendars for October 2020 are being unrealistic.

But, I don't recall anyone saying they're actually having fun as a Sox fan right now.....and people following the success of various prospects in the minors isn't the same as them having a happy happy fun time right now.

Again, this isn't a slam at anyone who thinks this whole rebuild endeavor stinks to high heaven and in no way is an attempt to silence them or badger them into submission about getting on the rebuild bandwagon. But, let's not mis-characterize what other fans are saying.
Not right now, no. Go back to the start of the season, and I heard plenty about how exciting this year's team was going to be.

This decidedly is not exciting.

If people on this board hate my guts and want to turn on me, I sorta don't care.
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  #90  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:07 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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That's how I feel about it. Don't get me wrong, Sox fans are certainly entitled to their opinion that the rebuild is a terrible idea, management doesn't deserve credit for squat, they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and people who are clearing their calendars for October 2020 are being unrealistic.
The rebuild is fine, the architects of the rebuild are wanting.

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Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
But, I don't recall anyone saying they're actually having fun as a Sox fan right now.....and people following the success of various prospects in the minors isn't the same as them having a happy happy fun time right now.
If an individual cannot have a fun night out with his/her companions on a summer night that's on the individual.


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Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
Again, this isn't a slam at anyone who thinks this whole rebuild endeavor stinks to high heaven and in no way is an attempt to silence them or badger them into submission about getting on the rebuild bandwagon. But, let's not mis-characterize what other fans are saying.
The rebuild is fine. The continued injuries, decided lack of hustle and the absolute worst execution of baseball fundamentals I've seen in my White Sox fan lifetime is what stinks.


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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Not right now, no. Go back to the start of the season, and I heard plenty about how exciting this year's team was going to be.

This decidedly is not exciting.

If people on this board hate my guts and want to turn on me, I sorta don't care.
I absolutely agree. If they lost you'd figure they'd be playing solid baseball and building major league experience. This team is doing nothing of the kind. This performance is on the architects of the rebuild.
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