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  #46  
Old 11-08-2018, 09:28 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Agree..not total idiots. But the results over the last 12 years leave their decision making ability highly suspect.
12 years?

They won the division in 2008, which was 10 years ago. That was clearly a successful season, with only freak injuries preventing a deeper playoff push.
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  #47  
Old 11-08-2018, 09:38 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
12 years?
You're right.
It's over the last 10 years....
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  #48  
Old 11-08-2018, 09:52 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
They wanted him back. They wanted to ensure continuity and not have this hanging over the team during this developmental season. They solved those issues.
They wanted him back, but nobody was lining up to hire him, so they could have waited.

They wanted to ensure continuity? I don't see his contract status as "hanging over" a team of prospects trying to make their own futures. The players who know Renteria best will mostly be gone before the contention window, and the rest have no attachment to him.

Do they think he's going to help recruiting premium free agents? I don't see it.
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  #49  
Old 11-08-2018, 09:58 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
They wanted him back, but nobody was lining up to hire him, so they could have waited.

They wanted to ensure continuity? I don't see his contract status as "hanging over" a team of prospects trying to make their own futures. The players who know Renteria best will mostly be gone before the contention window, and the rest have no attachment to him.

Do they think he's going to help recruiting premium free agents? I don't see it.
I think we might underestimate the bolded a little bit. The results arenít there thus far but by all accounts heís well liked as a coach.

Ultimately, Iíd be surprised if the way we judge this rebuild in retrospect comes down to the manager. I donít think itís a huge deal. Especially because unlike Ventura, Renteria is a real coach. If he doesnít adjust and have success after 4 or 5 years in the job, then you can cut ties and theyíd still have more than a couple years to do something with the core thatís currently developing.
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  #50  
Old 11-09-2018, 11:34 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
12 years?

They won the division in 2008, which was 10 years ago. That was clearly a successful season, with only freak injuries preventing a deeper playoff push.
They have had nine losing seasons in the past 12 years, haven't had back to back winning seasons since 2003-2006 and have made the playoffs once in those 12 years.

The "starting point" for this ineptness in my timeline is the 2007 disaster. Ergo 12 years.
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  #51  
Old 11-09-2018, 01:02 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
They have had nine losing seasons in the past 12 years, haven't had back to back winning seasons since 2003-2006 and have made the playoffs once in those 12 years.

The "starting point" for this ineptness in my timeline is the 2007 disaster. Ergo 12 years.
So was 2008 just an aberration or an accident? I thought you subscribed to the idea that ďluck is the residue of design.Ē

They would have beaten the Rays in the ALDS had Danks been able to pitch twice in that series, which would have happened if they hadnít lost Crede, Quentin, and Contreras to injury, all after the trade deadline, and thus been forced to win game 163 just to outlast the Twins. Iíll grant you that the Swisher deal was a disaster, but that didnít doom us in 2008.
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  #52  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:05 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is online now
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
So was 2008 just an aberration or an accident? I thought you subscribed to the idea that ďluck is the residue of design.Ē

They would have beaten the Rays in the ALDS had Danks been able to pitch twice in that series, which would have happened if they hadnít lost Crede, Quentin, and Contreras to injury, all after the trade deadline, and thus been forced to win game 163 just to outlast the Twins. Iíll grant you that the Swisher deal was a disaster, but that didnít doom us in 2008.
My own two cents is that 2008 was the last hurrah for the 2005 core and marked the beginning of the end of the success the organization had starting in 2000
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  #53  
Old 11-09-2018, 03:29 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
So was 2008 just an aberration or an accident? I thought you subscribed to the idea that ďluck is the residue of design.Ē

They would have beaten the Rays in the ALDS had Danks been able to pitch twice in that series, which would have happened if they hadnít lost Crede, Quentin, and Contreras to injury, all after the trade deadline, and thus been forced to win game 163 just to outlast the Twins. Iíll grant you that the Swisher deal was a disaster, but that didnít doom us in 2008.
It was a winning season and they made the playoffs. Not discounting it but let's not make it out to be more than it is.

They had nothing but success from 2000-2006, 2007 happened. Again that is my starting point for my comment...nine losing seasons in 12 years, six straight losing seasons, no consecutive winning seasons since 2003-2006 and one playoff appearance.

It is what it is. 12 years in my book. Nice job in 2008, 2010 and 2012 but they couldn't even come close to sustaining that limited success.

As others have said you pray the rebuild works but have serious issues with the same front office that put them in that position in the first place being told to fix it.
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  #54  
Old 11-09-2018, 10:41 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
They have had nine losing seasons in the past 12 years, haven't had back to back winning seasons since 2003-2006 and have made the playoffs once in those 12 years.

The "starting point" for this ineptness in my timeline is the 2007 disaster. Ergo 12 years.
The starting point was the second half of 2006. Ozzie should have been fired at the end of that season.
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  #55  
Old 11-10-2018, 06:49 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Folks can start and end timelines whenever they want; folks can connect dots in whatever way they want to fit their own pet narratives.

For my part, you can either emphasize continuity or you can emphasize change.

If you emphasize continuity, then you can easily find the connections between the 2005 and 2008 clubs: Ozzie, Paulie, Dye, Crede, Uribe, AJ,
Buehrle, Jenks, and Contreras, and how they all played a role in the success of that 2008 club.

If you emphasize change, then you clearly see that newcomers that KW acquired, like Danks, Floyd, Vazquez, Alexei, Quentin, Cabrera, Thome, Thornton, and Dotel, all played a role, too.

Yes, it’s true, the Nick Swisher acquisition (which only occurred because the Angels outbid KW for Torii Hunter at the last minute and didn’t give the Sox an opportunity to match/beat the deal) was an unmitigated disaster. But neither Swisher sucking - nor Paulie sucking - kept the Sox from making the playoffs. The Swisher deal was a disaster because we gave up Gio Gonzalez, who is still an effective starting pitcher a decade later, and got nothing in return.

The Swisher deal was the beginning of KW losing his previous “magic touch,” so in that way it began a compounding series of moves to fill holes both in the OF and in the rotation, that for the most part didn’t work.

In that way it’s fair to say “the Swisher deal was the start of a series of bad personnel moves,” but it’s unfair to lump the 2008 season into a narrative that also includes the Robin Ventura years and the subsequent tanking/rebuild.
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  #56  
Old 11-10-2018, 10:28 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Frater:

They were coming off a 99 win season and a World Series title in 2005, they won 90 games in 2006. It was the first time since 63-64-65 the Sox had consecutive years with 90+ wins.

Kenny Williams decided he was going to have a bullpen that all threw 95+ in 2007 and made deals accordingly.

He got what he wanted. A bunch of stiffs who threw 95+, couldn't find the plate, fell behind hitters and got ripped to shreds when they had to take something off the pitch to actually get it across the plate.

The demise of this franchise started that season in my opinion.
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  #57  
Old 11-11-2018, 05:30 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
The demise of this franchise started that season in my opinion.
I thought your issues with this franchise started before the window in the mid naughts?
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  #58  
Old 11-11-2018, 11:43 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
I thought your issues with this franchise started before the window in the mid naughts?
The demise of the franchise in this current time period, 2007-2018.

Of course there have been serious issues with the franchise before then, with this particular ownership the first one was the SportsVision decision (a very good one, but ahead of its time and doomed to failure with long term implications.) followed by the "philosophy" espoused by Eddie Einhorn that the Sox were going to be "Chicago's American League team..." and not to even challenge the Cubs for a rightful place in their own market at a time when the Cubs were awful and all the momentum in the area was towards the Sox especially after they signed Fisk and Luzinski.

So many wasted golden opportunities through being short sighted, vindictive or simply re-active instead of pro-active.
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  #59  
Old 11-11-2018, 05:05 PM
jamokes jamokes is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
I don't think winning is a priority. They are willfully mediocre. Kenny Williams still has a job. All he has proven was 2005 was lightning in a bottle luck. Everyone was good at the same time once.

I have a ton of faith in Hahn, but I don't know if its just I like his process, because right now he is showing he can accumulate a ton of talent, win trades, but either the players he is getting were not what they were once thought, or his development system is terrible.

Renteria has proven he can be a yes man and get a bunch of AAAA players to try and play hard. He is also proving he can turn a top prospect into an AAAA player quickly.

I am 33 years old, in my lifetime, the Sox have never made the playoffs 2 years in a row. My son is 7 and never witnessed the playoffs.

This is being willfully mediocre.
The White Sox have never made the playoffs two years in a row. N E V E R!!!
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  #60  
Old 11-11-2018, 05:12 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by jamokes View Post
The White Sox have never made the playoffs two years in a row. N E V E R!!!
They are the only one of the original 16 major league franchises to have never accomplished this.
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