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  #46  
Old 10-03-2018, 09:35 AM
TommyJohn TommyJohn is online now
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
That automatic link software gut really funky with your quoted post. I deleted the whole quoted section and you can probably edit it now.
Fixed it! Thanks
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  #47  
Old 10-03-2018, 09:39 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by TommyJohn View Post
This is really starting to bug me, that Boston was able to wear down Hahn and deal who they wanted for Sale. It makes me wonder if they knew something about Moncada that the Sox did not. Geez, I am starting to sound like other loud doomsayers (not on this board, though). I also wonder if other teams were offering anything for Sale.

Boston knew that the White Sox wanted to rebuild and knew that Sale was the key. They knew if they held out long enough, they'd wear Hahn down. That is exactly what happened. I was adamantly against trading Sale for that reason, but once it happened I went in on the rebuild, mainly because the other alternative was to weep and wail and predict dire doom and gloom. But this item doesn't exactly fill me confidence about how it will all turn out.
I think Moncada was always thought of as the lower floor/higher ceiling prospect. My assumption was that Boston (and the Sox) felt better about the safer player.
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  #48  
Old 10-03-2018, 09:51 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is online now
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Originally Posted by TommyJohn View Post
This is really starting to bug me, that Boston was able to wear down Hahn and deal who they wanted for Sale. It makes me wonder if they knew something about Moncada that the Sox did not. Geez, I am starting to sound like other loud doomsayers (not on this board, though). I also wonder if other teams were offering anything for Sale.

Boston knew that the White Sox wanted to rebuild and knew that Sale was the key. They knew if they held out long enough, they'd wear Hahn down. That is exactly what happened. I was adamantly against trading Sale for that reason, but once it happened I went in on the rebuild, mainly because the other alternative was to weep and wail and predict dire doom and gloom. But this item doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about how it will all turn out.

But you could also say that Hahn wore down the Cubs with their desire for Quintana. It works both ways; due to the nature of the trades of stars for prospects, we won't know which trades were wins and which were losses for several more years.
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  #49  
Old 10-03-2018, 10:39 AM
beasly213 beasly213 is offline
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Yeah losing 100 games stinks, but I much prefer this past year to the last couple years under Ventura.
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  #50  
Old 10-03-2018, 10:56 AM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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Originally Posted by TommyJohn View Post
This is really starting to bug me, that Boston was able to wear down Hahn and deal who they wanted for Sale. It makes me wonder if they knew something about Moncada that the Sox did not. Geez, I am starting to sound like other loud doomsayers (not on this board, though). I also wonder if other teams were offering anything for Sale.

Boston knew that the White Sox wanted to rebuild and knew that Sale was the key. They knew if they held out long enough, they'd wear Hahn down. That is exactly what happened. I was adamantly against trading Sale for that reason, but once it happened I went in on the rebuild, mainly because the other alternative was to weep and wail and predict dire doom and gloom. But this item doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about how it will all turn out.

You ALWAYS make the trade for a universally regarded top prospect and a top 30 prospect in the game for a guy that will never win you a world series.

Moncada is the move you make because if he develops, you likely have a top 5 player in the game. That's where his ceiling is. We are currently at his floor
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  #51  
Old 10-03-2018, 11:13 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by TommyJohn View Post
This is really starting to bug me, that Boston was able to wear down Hahn and deal who they wanted for Sale. It makes me wonder if they knew something about Moncada that the Sox did not. Geez, I am starting to sound like other loud doomsayers (not on this board, though). I also wonder if other teams were offering anything for Sale.

Boston knew that the White Sox wanted to rebuild and knew that Sale was the key. They knew if they held out long enough, they'd wear Hahn down. That is exactly what happened. I was adamantly against trading Sale for that reason, but once it happened I went in on the rebuild, mainly because the other alternative was to weep and wail and predict dire doom and gloom. But this item doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about how it will all turn out.
Aside from the Sox wanting Benintendi, do we really know what other factors went into finalizing that trade? What if the price for getting Benintendi in the deal would have been to not include Kopech? Torn UCL notwithstanding, would it be a good trade if the Sox agreed to that? Where does Basabe come in as part of the trade? He had a promising season in the minors and could still become a solid MLB player. The way I see it, we really won't know the outcome of this trade for a few years after we see what all 3 of these guys that we acquired end up achieving in the majors. Also, how much does it factor into the value of the trade that Benintendi, as good as he is, is a left fielder while Moncada is a middle infielder?

We also don't know what other teams were offering for Sale. Do we know for sure that another team would have topped Moncada/Kopech/Basabe?

So many variables and question marks, it's hard to play the what-if game on this deal - especially at this point in time. I understand the angst over giving up a franchise player like Sale, but IMO it's not worth getting too worked up about the outcome of this trade just yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
But you could also say that Hahn wore down the Cubs with their desire for Quintana. It works both ways; due to the nature of the trades of stars for prospects, we won't know which trades were wins and which were losses for several more years.
Yeah, that Q deal could end up being a giant steal for us. Even with Giolito's struggles, it's possible that Eaton for Lopez/Giolito/Dunning might end up looking like a huge win of a trade for us too. Some will pan out better than others. At least none of these trades looks to me like we only got magic beans for what we gave up.
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  #52  
Old 10-03-2018, 12:21 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post

We also don't know what other teams were offering for Sale. Do we know for sure that another team would have topped Moncada/Kopech/Basabe?
We do know what other teams were offering for Sale. Right before the Red Sox deal for Moncada/Kopech/Basabe there was reporting that a deal was close with the Nats. Not sure when it came out, but the package was Robles/Dunning/Giolito/Lopez. Pretty good package, Robles wasn't a top 5 prospect then either. I feel like Hahn always wanted a deal done with BOS and the reporting of this near deal pushed Dombrowski to add either Moncada or Kopech to get it done.
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  #53  
Old 10-03-2018, 12:56 PM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
We do know what other teams were offering for Sale. Right before the Red Sox deal for Moncada/Kopech/Basabe there was reporting that a deal was close with the Nats. Not sure when it came out, but the package was Robles/Dunning/Giolito/Lopez. Pretty good package, Robles wasn't a top 5 prospect then either. I feel like Hahn always wanted a deal done with BOS and the reporting of this near deal pushed Dombrowski to add either Moncada or Kopech to get it done.
Robles has been a disappointment in Washington for the most part. Sox fans would just be complaining that Hahn didn't hold out for Juan Soto (who had nowhere near the hype of Robles at the time).
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  #54  
Old 10-03-2018, 01:20 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
Robles has been a disappointment in Washington for the most part. Sox fans would just be complaining that Hahn didn't hold out for Juan Soto (who had nowhere near the hype of Robles at the time).
Robles got back from an injury and posted a .874 OPS in 21 games this year and he is still only 21 years old. Hardly a disappointment.
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  #55  
Old 10-03-2018, 09:03 PM
whitesoxfan1986 whitesoxfan1986 is offline
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Originally Posted by beasly213 View Post
Yeah losing 100 games stinks, but I much prefer this past year to the last couple years under Ventura.
Exactly.
The Sox weren't winning anything with Sale, Q, Abreu, and Eaton along with roster filler. The fact that he's a year away from FA and we still don't know what Avi is means he wouldn't have helped either.
This is what Rebuilding looks like. Does losing 95-100 games for a couple years suck, yes.

I just wish Murphy's Law didn't rule the day for the 2018 Sox. Unless all of their top pitching prospects blew out their elbows(actually shoulder injuries are worse), and all of their top hitting prospects fell flat on their face, it is hard to see how this season could have gone any worse. 2018 was the worst case scenario realistically. 2019 is huge for this franchise.

If the Sox, in 10/2019 are left with all questions and no answers as they are as of 10/2018, it is hard to see this process working.
No matter whether this rebuild is successful or not, it was still the right decision to make. If it does fail, it just means that Hahn and KW were not the right men for the job, which a lot of us thought from the beginning of the process.
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  #56  
Old 10-04-2018, 12:39 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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The Sale trade wasn’t a bad trade per se- but they didn’t get a premium either. Eaton was okay (but should have pushed for Robles). Q was very good. The rest before and during the rebuild stunk. Most were made on the other teams’ terms, with Hahn taking stunted Rule 5 guys. The exception is Eaton #1, which was great. But that type of trade was not repeated. Instead they rented the Shark for a year under some delusion that he could transform a 73 win team into a contender. Then they refused to trade him in July and used the comp pick on a college reliever.
The ineptitude just goes on and on.

Last edited by Tragg; 10-04-2018 at 12:44 AM.
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  #57  
Old 10-04-2018, 08:32 AM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
The Sale trade wasnít a bad trade per se- but they didnít get a premium either. Eaton was okay (but should have pushed for Robles). Q was very good. The rest before and during the rebuild stunk. Most were made on the other teamsí terms, with Hahn taking stunted Rule 5 guys. The exception is Eaton #1, which was great. But that type of trade was not repeated. Instead they rented the Shark for a year under some delusion that he could transform a 73 win team into a contender. Then they refused to trade him in July and used the comp pick on a college reliever.
The ineptitude just goes on and on.
Sale netted them the number 1 prospect in baseball and a guy who within 10 months was the best pitching prospect in baseball... but they didnít get a premium? Okay.

Eaton netted them two major league caliber starting pitchers, with a third possibly on the way. Still not sure what the problem with this is, because everybody who isnít you said and still says the Nationals significantly overpaid.

You just keep beating the same points into the ground over and over and they keep getting rebutted over and over. Not sure what youíre getting out of it but it kind of negates the point of discussion since you seem so dead set on this particular narrative.
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  #58  
Old 10-04-2018, 08:48 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Sale netted them the number 1 prospect in baseball and a guy who within 10 months was the best pitching prospect in baseball... but they didnít get a premium? Okay.

Eaton netted them two major league caliber starting pitchers, with a third possibly on the way. Still not sure what the problem with this is, because everybody who isnít you said and still says the Nationals significantly overpaid.

You just keep beating the same points into the ground over and over and they keep getting rebutted over and over. Not sure what youíre getting out of it but it kind of negates the point of discussion since you seem so dead set on this particular narrative.
Yeah, Iím done getting trolled.
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  #59  
Old 10-04-2018, 08:52 AM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Yeah, Iím done getting trolled.
Well put. The idea that Washington was giving up Robles is beyond laughable.
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  #60  
Old 10-04-2018, 09:21 AM
lpneck lpneck is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
Moncada is the move you make because if he develops, you likely have a top 5 player in the game. That's where his ceiling is. We are currently at his floor
Are you saying that you believe that he still potentially has the ceiling of being a top 5 player in the game?

I'm not saying that WAR is or should be the definitive list of how to rank players by ability, but I think that the guy who ranks #206 in WAR for the season is pretty far removed from the conversation of "could be a top 5 player in baseball."
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