This could be interesting...

[Lip Man 1]

Hawk will be on the MLB Network, Brian Kenney sabermetics show this afternoon starting at 3PM Chicago time.

Lip

[jdm2662]

I read this yesterday on NBC Sports. Does Hawk really want to embarrass himself more than he already does? I hate statistical analysis as much as the next guy (I needed two tries to pass that damn class in grad school), but they aren't completely useless. Hawk lives in this world where is right, and if you don't agree with him, he gets pissy.

[pythons007]

They have clips of him bashing sabermetrics on the Bors and Bernstein show.

[Lip Man 1]

Not defending or disagreeing with Hawk's position per se but one of his points that I think has been overlooked in the furor over his comments has been the human element.

One of Hawk's positions is that good baseball people are being let go because some organizations feel a computer can do a better job of talent evaluation than a human being.

And there is some truth to that, Washington let a number of people go for example, including former Sox pitcher Bart Johnson as they invested more heavily on the numbers approach to things.

Read the story on the Mariners this week in S.I. and the supposed boatload of youg talent they have and was impressed with their G.M.'s comments on all this.

"You sit in a room with all your scouting people, you let them know how important they are, that they really are the lifeblood of what we're trying to do."

I think to a good extent this is what Hawk is upset about.

Lip

[kittle42]

Whether or not you agree with Hawk, he's likely to get steamrolled in this one.

[jdm2662]

Originally Posted by Lip Man 1

Not defending or disagreeing with Hawk's position per se but one of his points that I think has been overlooked in the furor over his comments has been the human element.

One of Hawk's positions is that good baseball people are being let go because some organizations feel a computer can do a better job of talent evaluation than a human being.

And there is some truth to that, Washington let a number of people go for example, including former Sox pitcher Bart Johnson as they invested more heavily on the numbers approach to things.

Read the story on the Mariners this week in S.I. and the supposed boatload of youg talent they have and was impressed with their G.M.'s comments on all this.

"You sit in a room with all your scouting people, you let them know how important they are, that they really are the lifeblood of what we're trying to do."

I think to as good extent this is what Hawk is upset about.

Lip

I agree with this. I will be the first one to tell you can't go by in life by just using numbers. You need common sense as well. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for numbers, it just can't be solely relied on. I've expressed this at my current and past jobs, and my stats are usually the highest or near the top every time. Of course, it hasn't gotten me anymore, but that's another thread.

The problem is, guys like Hawk and other old timers completely dismiss it completely. Computers are a way of life and not just for advanced users anymore. Yes, they are replacing jobs of people, but that's been the case for over 15 years now. It's not going to change.

"I hate computers. They are ruining the country." -Al Bundy, 1989

[SI1020]

I can't say what I want without opening up a giant can of worms. I'll just say that many businesses have lost both the arts of commons sense and evaluation. Particularly evaluation. You can never take a bloodless look at numbers no matter what your business is. It is so shorsighted and unproductive. As for Hawk, kittle will probably be right. Hawk could get steamrolled badly. It wouldn't make him wrong though.

[amsteel]

I'm sure they'll have a well-reasoned, professional, non-shouty discussion.

[kufram]

I love computers and numbers are a valuable tool to be used. My computer makes it possible for me to watch White Sox baseball from where I live (not always a rewarding experience!). It helps me enormously when writing and recording music. But I would never let a computer make a decision or call the shots.

[aryzner]

Originally Posted by kufram

I love computers and numbers are a valuable tool to be used. My computer makes it possible for me to watch White Sox baseball from where I live (not always a rewarding experience!). It helps me enormously when writing and recording music. But I would never let a computer make a decision or call the shots.

[WhiteSox5187]

Originally Posted by kittle42

Whether or not you agree with Hawk, he's likely to get steamrolled in this one.

Agreed, although I think Brian Kenney is a bit of an idiot too. I think most people who are in Sabermetrics (at least in front office positions) can and will acknowledge that there is a huge human element that is at play when it comes to baseball and that cannot be quantified by any measure of statistical analysis. Hawk's original comment was "Give me a team of guys that want to win," that was stupid and hyperbolic.

His overall point though I THINK was that there are psychological elements that come into play that can't be quantified. You can use any cliche you would like, but there are in fact some guys who wilt under pressure, who can't play in large markets and some guys and teams who are able to produce more than the sum total of their parts would suggest. The reasons for that can't be quantified and I doubt they ever will be but they need to at least be acknowledged when you are talking about stats and player evaluation.

[kittle42]

Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187

His overall point though I THINK was that there are psychological elements that come into play that can't be quantified. You can use any cliche you would like, but there are in fact some guys who wilt under pressure, who can't play in large markets and some guys and teams who are able to produce more than the sum total of their parts would suggest. The reasons for that can't be quantified and I doubt they ever will be but they need to at least be acknowledged when you are talking about stats and player evaluation.

And any wise saber person should admit that.

[hawkjt]

One of Hawk's favorite Hawkisms is how he likes the lower drafted pitchers,because they often have not excelled on their superior stuff,but more on their competitiveness,and mound presence.

I think this is the essence of his issue with the sabremeticians dominating the personnel aspect of baseball. Also, I think he is still holding a grudge against Billy Beane from the comments attributed to Beane in MoneyBall that were unkind to Kenny Williams and the Sox.

That is where Hawk goes off the rails...and if he lets that surface,he will look dumb. Kenney as acknowledged that he likes to listen to Hawk do games,and that Hawk was not ungracious toward Kenney in this debate.

It goes back to Hawk hating B & B also....gutless wonders that they are.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by Lip Man 1

And there is some truth to that, Washington let a number of people go for example, including former Sox pitcher Bart Johnson as they invested more heavily on the numbers approach to things.

Yeah, and look at the results... You're talking about a team that won 95 games last year and probably has the most enviable collection of under-25 talent assembled... maybe ever?

Sorry Hawk, just because the Sox act like a charity and keep your worthless ass around for no reason, good teams that actually, you know, win? Don't behave that way.

[dickallen15]

Originally Posted by doublem23

Yeah, and look at the results... You're talking about a team that won 95 games last year and probably has the most enviable collection of under-25 talent assembled... maybe ever?

Sorry Hawk, just because the Sox act like a charity and keep your worthless ass around for no reason, good teams that actually, you know, win? Don't behave that way.

I really don't see how a team could rely very heavily on sabermetrics for a draft. HS and college baseball is a totally different game, from the aluminum bats, to the higher seamed baseballs that are used in the NCAA.

The Nationals were very fortunate to have the number 1 pick 2 times when there clearly was one player above all others. Any team not using sabermetrics at all would have drafted Strasberg and Harper.