White Sox Interactive Forums
Talking Baseball

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Talking Baseball
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 08-22-2018, 09:17 PM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is offline
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 55,360
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
If you want to play a player out of position fine. The team on offense has a chance to show that strategy is ineffective.
Yep. you can stack all 7 defenders within a few feet of 3B if you really want to.
__________________

Riding shotgun on the Sox bandwagon since before there was an Internet...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-23-2018, 09:48 AM
DaveIsHere DaveIsHere is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Joliet,IL
Posts: 3,929
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Yep. you can stack all 7 defenders within a few feet of 3B if you really want to.
'Meh, I hate the shift, I really do.. I get it, I understand it, it just bothers be. This may be because it happens on every play. Like was stated hitters need to learn to go the other way to beat it and it will stop.........it still bothers be though....
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-23-2018, 10:27 AM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
Winner 2016 WSI Preseason Prediction Contest
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southside
Posts: 15,836
Default

Jayson Stark has an article in The Athletic awhile ago that quoted Daniel Murphy (among others) talking about why they donít bunt and how hard it is to go the other way when a pitcher is throwing 95+ on the inside. I wonder though, why wouldnít a hitter just back off the plate then? If youíre going to have the entire left side of the infield open, I imagine a pitcher will want to pound the hitter inside. Wouldnít backing off the plate negate that? And if the pitcher then starts throwing to the outside corner, wouldnít that make it easier for the hitter to just throw his bat out to poke the ball to the open left side of the infield? Granted, I know itís not easy to hit, but I always assumed that a major league hitter would be capable of doing these kind of things.
__________________

Go Sox!!!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-23-2018, 11:00 AM
mzh mzh is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,345
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Jayson Stark has an article in The Athletic awhile ago that quoted Daniel Murphy (among others) talking about why they don’t bunt and how hard it is to go the other way when a pitcher is throwing 95+ on the inside. I wonder though, why wouldn’t a hitter just back off the plate then? If you’re going to have the entire left side of the infield open, I imagine a pitcher will want to pound the hitter inside. Wouldn’t backing off the plate negate that? And if the pitcher then starts throwing to the outside corner, wouldn’t that make it easier for the hitter to just throw his bat out to poke the ball to the open left side of the infield? Granted, I know it’s not easy to hit, but I always assumed that a major league hitter would be capable of doing these kind of things.
You're pretty much right, the problem would be that if you're that far off the plate, even if you can just throw the bat out there and make contact, it would be so hard to actually hit the ball on the barrel that the odds are the contact would be weak enough that it still probably wouldn't "beat the shift."

I think as a general principle we would all do well to remember, like you said, just how freaking hard hitting is! A major league is definitely *good enough* to do them in theory, but it would still require a huge amount of practice and repetition, especially since it kind of goes against what most hitters are taught from a pretty young age. As they say, baseball is probably the only profession where failing 70% of the time makes you the best in the world. So when we say "why don't hitters just do X?" just remember that it's not easy get so good at a very specific kind of situational hitting that it would actually be successful frequently enough to make it viable.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-23-2018, 11:22 AM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is offline
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 55,360
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveIsHere View Post
'Meh, I hate the shift, I really do.. I get it, I understand it, it just bothers be. This may be because it happens on every play. Like was stated hitters need to learn to go the other way to beat it and it will stop.........it still bothers be though....
Baseball has lots of unwritten rules about beating the other guy fair and square. Don't bunt to break up a no-no late in the game with your team losing by more than a few runs (or at all in extreme viewpoints) is one example and the subject of other threads here in this very forum.

People used to be upset about changeups and other new breaking pitches. "Pitch to me/him, you loser."

The shift triggers that same sense of "not playing the game right" in many people. I understand the emotions behind that feeling.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-23-2018, 11:35 AM
FielderJones's Avatar
FielderJones FielderJones is offline
WSI Village Atheist
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clarendon Hills
Posts: 5,992
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
The shift triggers that same sense of "not playing the game right" in many people. I understand the emotions behind that feeling.

I don't care about the shift. I just wish someone would demonstrate that against some pitchers, bunting or going the other way is tactically correct. Many of the advanced analytical arguments are made treating all players as exactly the same. I don't think there's enough granularity in current analytical models to show that the same approach for everyone is not necessarily advantageous.
__________________
2018 Attendance Tracker: 8 - 8


Apr 5 L
Apr 10 L
May 18 L
May 22 W
Jun 1 W
Jun 22 L W
Jul 2 L @ CIN
Jul 3 W @ CIN
Jul 11 W
Jul 28 W
Aug 17 W
Sep 8 L
Sep 22 L
Sep 23 L
Sep 25 W

Next Game 2019 ?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-23-2018, 11:52 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 9,749
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FielderJones
I don't care about the shift. I just wish someone would demonstrate that against some pitchers, bunting or going the other way is tactically correct. Many of the advanced analytical arguments are made treating all players as exactly the same. I don't think there's enough granularity in current analytical models to show that the same approach for everyone is not necessarily advantageous.
The guys who have the superb bat control to succeed often enough to make an opposite field approach tactically correct are not the guys who see infield shifts employed against them.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsemaster Fred
This is the major leagues so get it how you live and letís fight tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:12 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is online now
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sebring Florida
Posts: 10,526
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
There are no mentions of any "positions" by players in the baseball rule book.

I remember back in the day that former Sox manager Paul Richards would bring in an outfielder to play the infield with the winning run on 3rd regardless of how many outs. His thought was the chances were better of saving the run with more infielders vs. getting beat by a sac fly, hence only 2 outfielders. If memory serves me, it was more successful than not. I'm pretty sure that the next 2 Sox managers after Richards (Marion and Lopez) also tried it.
__________________
Batting in the second position for the White Sox, number 2, the second baseman Nelson Fox.

Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 08-23-2018 at 01:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:16 PM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 6,675
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
There are no mentions of any "positions" by players in the baseball rule book.
To me, telling teams where they can or cannot place fielders is a (far) bigger violation of baseball norms and tradition than the recent growth of the shift.
__________________
"Hope...may be indulged in by those who have abundant resources...but its nature is to be extravagant, and those who go so far as to stake their all upon the venture see it in its true colors only when they are ruined."
-- Thucydides
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:47 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.