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View Poll Results: Who deserves it?
Joe Jackson 27 57.45%
Harold Baines 18 38.30%
Minnie Minoso 29 61.70%
Billy Pierce 22 46.81%
Konerko 6 12.77%
Buehrle 4 8.51%
Dick Allen 13 27.66%
Wilbur Wood 3 6.38%
The inventor of Churros 7 14.89%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31  
Old 11-08-2018, 03:35 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by Wsoxmike59 View Post
I've always felt that Billy Pierce was overlooked by the HOF. His stats compare similarly to that of Whitey Ford, as they both were the ace of their staffs. Ford no doubt benefited from pitching for the power laden Yankees while Pierce's White Sox had to scratch and fight for every run they could get. My Dad often said if Pierce had pitched for the Yankees and Whitey Ford on the White Sox the outcomes would've been pretty much the same. Ford probably would've lost as many heartbreakers as Billy Pierce did.



All that being said, Ford no doubt was a HOF class pitcher as his W-L record and astounding .690 winning percentage would indicate. Now on to Billy Pierce, Tommy John and Jim Kaat and the case for their enshrinement in to Cooperstown.



Billy Pierce W-211 L-169 Wpct-.555
Tommy John W-288 L-231 Wpct- .555
Jim Kaat W-283 L-237 Wpct - .544


I've often wondered what the best 162 game stretch the above 3 had during their careers. I've been a little lazy at looking it up and figuring it all out, but the point I'm getting at, if Pierce, John, and Kaat were a singular baseball team what would their best 162 game record be? i.e. W-100 L-62 etc...and I'd bet that their 162 game record would be good enough to be a 1st place team, and that in my estimation would indicate that they were HOF caliber type pitchers during the prime of their careers.
Ford also benefited from never having to face Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, or Elston Howard.
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  #32  
Old 11-08-2018, 03:37 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Ford also benefited from never having to face Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, or Elston Howard.
.....and probably no one faced them more than Billy.
What fun times when Billy and Whitey had their classic pitching duels.
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Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 11-08-2018 at 03:42 PM.
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  #33  
Old 11-08-2018, 03:44 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
.....and probably no one faced them more than Billy.
The batters that Pierce faced most often in his career were: Hank Bauer, Mickey Mantle, Bobby Avila, Gil McDougal and Yogi Berra.

The batters that Ford faced most often in his career were: Nellie Fox, Luis Aparicio, Minnie Minoso, Al Smith and Eddie Yost.
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  #34  
Old 11-08-2018, 03:51 PM
Paulwny Paulwny is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
The batters that Pierce faced most often in his career were: Hank Bauer, Mickey Mantle, Bobby Avila, Gil McDougal and Yogi Berra.

The batters that Ford faced most often in his career were: Nellie Fox, Luis Aparicio, Minnie Minoso, Al Smith and Eddie Yost.
I think you're thinking of someone else. Bobby Avila played most of his career with the Indians. He never played for the Yanks.
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  #35  
Old 11-08-2018, 04:02 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by Paulwny View Post
I think you're thinking of someone else. Bobby Avila played most of his career with the Indians. He never played for the Yanks.
Right but he was the hitter that had the third most plate appearances against Billy Pierce in Pierce's career.
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  #36  
Old 11-08-2018, 04:08 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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I did not get to see a lot of these guys play so I can only go off numbers, so I voted for Joe Jackson and Minnie. Minnie deserves it just based on what he did breaking that barrier.

Others, PK, Baines, Burls are all where they belong, Sox hall of fame and outside looking in from the hall of really good.
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  #37  
Old 11-08-2018, 04:46 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
The batters that Pierce faced most often in his career were: Hank Bauer, Mickey Mantle, Bobby Avila, Gil McDougal and Yogi Berra.

The batters that Ford faced most often in his career were: Nellie Fox, Luis Aparicio, Minnie Minoso, Al Smith and Eddie Yost.
All I said was that probably no one faced the 3 mentioned previously as much a Billy. I do agree on the ones you mentioned also, in fact I was going to bring up Bauer, Skowron and McDougald. Just curious, where did you find that info? There were a few others that might have faced those Yankees as much as Billy, I'm thinking mainly of Wynn and Bunning.
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  #38  
Old 11-08-2018, 05:31 PM
BigKlu59 BigKlu59 is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
Hey **** happens but always remember that Serutan spelled backwards is natures.
Great ad recollection...Ya see that worked old timer. Just one more thing we old studs need to keep things moving along. Ain’t it fun?

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  #39  
Old 11-08-2018, 05:34 PM
BigKlu59 BigKlu59 is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
All I said was that probably no one faced the 3 mentioned previously as much a Billy. I do agree on the ones you mentioned also, in fact I was going to bring up Bauer, Skowron and McDougald. Just curious, where did you find that info? There were a few others that might have faced those Yankees as much as Billy, I'm thinking mainly of Wynn and Bunning.
The more I read these posts the more I get pissed off for Minnie and Billy. It all boils down to not wearing that wicked NY on their ballcap.

BK59
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  #40  
Old 11-08-2018, 09:09 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wsoxmike59 View Post
I've always felt that Billy Pierce was overlooked by the HOF. His stats compare similarly to that of Whitey Ford, as they both were the ace of their staffs. Ford no doubt benefited from pitching for the power laden Yankees while Pierce's White Sox had to scratch and fight for every run they could get. My Dad often said if Pierce had pitched for the Yankees and Whitey Ford on the White Sox the outcomes would've been pretty much the same. Ford probably would've lost as many heartbreakers as Billy Pierce did.



All that being said, Ford no doubt was a HOF class pitcher as his W-L record and astounding .690 winning percentage would indicate. Now on to Billy Pierce, Tommy John and Jim Kaat and the case for their enshrinement in to Cooperstown.



Billy Pierce W-211 L-169 Wpct-.555
Tommy John W-288 L-231 Wpct- .555
Jim Kaat W-283 L-237 Wpct - .544


I've often wondered what [/B]the above 3 had during their careers. I've been a little lazy at looking it up and figuring it all out, but the point I'm getting at, if Pierce, John, and Kaat were a singular baseball team what would their best 162 game record be? i.e. W-100 L-62 etc...and I'd bet that their 162 game record would be good enough to be a 1st place team, and that in my estimation would indicate that they were HOF caliber type pitchers during the prime of their careers.
For those who feel this should be a part in Hall of Fame entry, from my case for Billy Pierce in the Hall of Fame for the Chicago Baseball Museum:

"Pierce was the AL's best pitcher in the 1950s according to WAR
(43.7) while running second in both ERA+ (128) and wins (155)."

"In head to head decisions against Ford, Pierce was 8-6."
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  #41  
Old 11-09-2018, 01:46 AM
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Nellie_Fox Nellie_Fox is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
The batters that Ford faced most often in his career were: Nellie Fox, Luis Aparicio, Minnie Minoso, Al Smith and Eddie Yost.
"Nellie was the toughest out for me. In twelve years, I struck him out once and I think the umpire blew the call." - Whitey Ford
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  #42  
Old 11-09-2018, 08:30 AM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
All I said was that probably no one faced the 3 mentioned previously as much a Billy. I do agree on the ones you mentioned also, in fact I was going to bring up Bauer, Skowron and McDougald. Just curious, where did you find that info? There were a few others that might have faced those Yankees as much as Billy, I'm thinking mainly of Wynn and Bunning.
Baseball-reference.com, I was posting them to show how tough the guys Pierce had to face were, especially compared to Ford because with all due respect to Luis and Nellie, they weren’t exactly known as offensive powerhouses.

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Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox View Post
"Nellie was the toughest out for me. In twelve years, I struck him out once and I think the umpire blew the call." - Whitey Ford
Ford might have only struck him out once, but I think Fox only hit like .212 against Ford. I will have to double check.
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  #43  
Old 11-09-2018, 11:02 AM
MinnieMinoso MinnieMinoso is offline
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One of the problems on our board is that guys like Minnie, Pierce,Fox, Aparicio and those guys from the fifties were never seen live by a lot of the people on this board. Sometimes to form an opinion, you have to see the people play and not just form opinions on stats alone. I love Harold Baines and hope he makes it into the hall, but I think as an overall player, Minnie was the better player because i saw both of them play and that's what I base my opinion on. The same thing happens when you get a guy on the Sox that you never really saw day in and day out and you find that he is much better or worse than you thought. We all know that the hall leaves a lot of people out because the writers saw some players a lot more than others and that is how they form their opinions too. I have my own hall of fame in my head and it is probably biased also for those reasons.
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  #44  
Old 11-10-2018, 02:15 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Wsoxmike59 View Post
This. Along with Billy Pierce, these three lefties should be in the HOF.

Jackson got practically no Hall of Fame support, a total number of votes that could easily be counted on one hand when he was alive and eligible. Now that he's dead and popular fiction has bestowed him with a mythic status while ignoring his crime, he has a sentimental undercurrent of support. Connie Mack might have felt guilty about the way he treated Jackson after Jackson signed with the A's.


Jackson isn't getting into the Hall of Fame just as Phillippe Petain, the hero of Verdun, won't be honored by France in the ceremonies commemorating the centennial of the WWI armistice. Realistically, Jackson will never be reinstated, can never be reinstated and will never be eligible. At the center of Jackson's legend is 1919 and a scandal that nearly destroyed baseball. The tragic fall, with which he was complicit, is part of the reason he holds a mythical quality.


I was on Jackson's side once, but not since I read his grand jury testimony.
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  #45  
Old 11-10-2018, 05:19 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Jackson isn't getting into the Hall of Fame just as [emphasis mine] Phillippe Petain, the hero of Verdun, won't be honored by France in the ceremonies commemorating the centennial of the WWI armistice.
Are you trying to draw an equivalence between the two men?
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