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  #61  
Old 06-18-2017, 02:20 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
Tanking on purpose will almost never lead to something good. How about just start making better decisions about who to keep, and who to unload. If the Sox do better than expected enjoy it. If they can't make any more deals that are promising don't think all is lost. They did sign Robert and the recent draft gives one reason to be at least cautiously optimistic. For the immediate I'm going to try to leave this alone and only comment if a move is imminent or actually made. I'll watch the games and enjoy the wins, especially this last win against Toronto. Real exciting baseball and some gutsy moves by the manager that paid off big time.

I am not promoting tanking and never will but if the Sox are afraid of not being able to sell off if the team is in the hunt this is how to do it. I want the Sox to compete considering the small amount they can get for the players this year, that will not be part of the rebuild.
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  #62  
Old 06-18-2017, 03:17 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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If we truly are rebuilding, then the most sustainable way to acquire cornerstone players is through the draft and amateur international free agency. Therefore, it is imperative to get the highest possible draft pick. It doesn't always work out, but one or two losses in the past have been the difference between Frank Thomas and Earl Cunningham.

Veterans in the penultimate or final years of their contracts are prime candidates to move: Melky, Frazier, Robertson. So are players - particularly relievers - that will be overvalued by teams with desperate needs.

Ideally Hahn will find a trade partner who needs two or more of these veterans, and we can leverage them - plus cash - into a highly-regarded prospect at a position of organizational need.

I can go either way on Quintana; he could still be under contract by the time the Sox are competitive again.

Younger players playing well helps the Sox remain even more patient with prospects; having both Davidson and Delmonico playing well means the Sox really can take their time with Michalczewski (sp?) and Burger.
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  #63  
Old 06-18-2017, 03:27 PM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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I'm not sure that's really true re the best prospects. First, which ones are ready? Moncada really isn't but they could promote him anyway. But then you kick Yolmer, who is improving, off of 2b (not sure why they don't give Moncada some OF work - no OFs in the pipeline and some say he could be a plus defender in the OF).
Maybe Lopez, but they have enough starters.. Shields is off the DL and Rodon is back soon....so they have 2 extra starters. They really need to get Holland moved if that's in the cards.
They could trade Frazier and bring up Delmonico.
They should trade Robertson and could bring up anyone...Burdi would be fine...
Hahn really needs to start moving some guys.
The play of Avi, Davidson, L Garcia, Yolmer and Kahnle must have surprised them. Maybe it makes them think they can accelerate things.
I wish I had more confidence in Hahn to pull this off.
That's for smarter baseball people than me to decide. My point is, I think it's a mistake to just unilaterally declare that all prospects should stay in the minors for a full year to learn their craft. The implication there is we don't want to call anybody up until their development is "complete."

That's not gonna happen, because there's a learning curve that has to take place at the big-league level for all young players. For example, is Tim Anderson's development complete? Absolutely not. Does that mean he was rushed to the majors? Absolutely not. There was nothing left for him at Triple-A.

At some point, a young player has to be challenged by major league competition, or else his development is going to stall. The White Sox should call up any player who reaches that point, where there's really nothing left to learn in Charlotte and and it's time to see what he can do in the majors. Will there be growing pains at the major league level? Of course, but that's part of the process. We've seen that with Anderson this year, and I think it will pay dividends next year and beyond.

There's a justified fear among Sox fans about the team rushing prospects to the bigs, but we have to remember it's also a mistake to overcorrect and leave guys in the minors too long. At some point, you gotta let them play. I'm not saying we're at that point with Moncada or anybody else right now, but I think that point will come for a couple guys before the year is over.
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  #64  
Old 06-18-2017, 03:55 PM
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Yeah, I agree. Every thread longer than 20 posts ends in the same conversation. I am full in on the rebuild and excited about the deadline, but I also seriously made an ump's strike three motion on Robertson's K to end the game.

I think I'll take a break. Not much to see here.
I hear ya. It was a real nice win yesterday. And today I'm yelling at the TV today because I'm unhappy with Wegner's strike zone.

My intensity for day-to-day games has not waned at all, and I don't feel like I need to apologize for caring.
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  #65  
Old 06-18-2017, 04:27 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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If ownership doesnt care what the media and fans think then ownership wouldnt care if williams and hahn were hung out to dry by stopping the rebuild for the season.
The difference Noneck is that RH and KW are part of the family. As I mentioned before, JR is very loyal...he wouldn't do that to them especially after he agreed to the rebuild in the first place. JR does care about those who are loyal to him, he's shown that his entire ownership tenure.

Fans, media, agents are a different set of circumstances.
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  #66  
Old 06-18-2017, 04:54 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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My point is, I think it's a mistake to just unilaterally declare that all prospects should stay in the minors for a full year to learn their craft. The implication there is we don't want to call anybody up until their development is "complete."
Ideally, I would give college hitters at least 1000 plate appearances (two minor league seasons) to make the transition to wood bats. Extreme upper-echelon guys like the Bryce Harper and Kris Bryant may be able to go after only 500 plate appearances, but I don't know if we will ever have access to a prodigious talent like that any time soon.
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  #67  
Old 06-18-2017, 05:03 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1
Also just FYI, Nick Cafardo is reporting the Cardinals have been inquiring about A. Garcia. If that is true, the Sox need to be listening before he falls back to Earth. Could maybe get another two good prospects out of this.
My guess is that the Cardinals are seeing if they can buy low. I'll bet their offer was laughable. Tell them they can have Abreu instead.
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  #68  
Old 06-18-2017, 07:27 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
That's for smarter baseball people than me to decide. My point is, I think it's a mistake to just unilaterally declare that all prospects should stay in the minors for a full year to learn their craft. The implication there is we don't want to call anybody up until their development is "complete."

That's not gonna happen, because there's a learning curve that has to take place at the big-league level for all young players. For example, is Tim Anderson's development complete? Absolutely not. Does that mean he was rushed to the majors? Absolutely not. There was nothing left for him at Triple-A.

At some point, a young player has to be challenged by major league competition, or else his development is going to stall. The White Sox should call up any player who reaches that point, where there's really nothing left to learn in Charlotte and and it's time to see what he can do in the majors. Will there be growing pains at the major league level? Of course, but that's part of the process. We've seen that with Anderson this year, and I think it will pay dividends next year and beyond.

There's a justified fear among Sox fans about the team rushing prospects to the bigs, but we have to remember it's also a mistake to overcorrect and leave guys in the minors too long. At some point, you gotta let them play. I'm not saying we're at that point with Moncada or anybody else right now, but I think that point will come for a couple guys before the year is over.
JB:

An interesting comment and there are some real valid points to it in my opinion.

All I can offer in return is the notion that to me, a guy can't challenge folks in the major leagues until they are proficient in many areas...not just hitting, not just throwing first pitch strikes or being able to bunt...but an ability to master something which has been badly lacking in the Sox big league team for years...solid fundamentals regardless of what position someone plays.

There are very, very few guys who can master fundamentals in a single year of minor league baseball.

I simply doubt any of the Sox top prospects have the all around skill yet to succeed at the MLB level in my opinion.

Also I go back to the "old school" days...if it didn't hurt players like Peters or Horlen to spend years, literally years in the minors I fail to see how even today spending one or two complete years in the minors is going to retard any good player.

Personally I'd rather have a guy who knows how to play and can help the team win say for only three or four years then to have a guy who has no idea what they are doing for six years before they become a free agent.

No need to rush the top kids in my opinion, I'll state that again. There are plenty of 'cannon fodder,' 'fill types' in the minor leagues who don't figure into the long term plans for the organization who can take a spot on the big league roster for the final two months of this year after the trade deadline.
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  #69  
Old 06-19-2017, 02:48 AM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
JB:

An interesting comment and there are some real valid points to it in my opinion.

All I can offer in return is the notion that to me, a guy can't challenge folks in the major leagues until they are proficient in many areas...not just hitting, not just throwing first pitch strikes or being able to bunt...but an ability to master something which has been badly lacking in the Sox big league team for years...solid fundamentals regardless of what position someone plays.

There are very, very few guys who can master fundamentals in a single year of minor league baseball.

I simply doubt any of the Sox top prospects have the all around skill yet to succeed at the MLB level in my opinion.

Also I go back to the "old school" days...if it didn't hurt players like Peters or Horlen to spend years, literally years in the minors I fail to see how even today spending one or two complete years in the minors is going to retard any good player.

Personally I'd rather have a guy who knows how to play and can help the team win say for only three or four years then to have a guy who has no idea what they are doing for six years before they become a free agent.

No need to rush the top kids in my opinion, I'll state that again. There are plenty of 'cannon fodder,' 'fill types' in the minor leagues who don't figure into the long term plans for the organization who can take a spot on the big league roster for the final two months of this year after the trade deadline.
Right, but most of the guys we're talking about are not in their first year of minor league baseball. Moncada, for example, is in his third season of minor league ball. Giolito was drafted out of high school, so even though he's only 22, this is his sixth season of pro ball. Reynaldo Lopez also has been in pro ball since 2012.

I'm not going to argue that these guys are "ready." After all, I'm just reading reports on them. I'm not watching them day after day. Again, brighter baseball minds than mine can decide whether they deserve to be called up.

But I'm not ready to say that all of them need to spend this entire season in the minors, when several of them have already spent significant time in the minors. I don't think it's necessarily a bad move if the Sox trade a veteran starter in July and call up Lopez for a shot at sticking in the rotation.

And, again, I understand the concern you and others might have about the Sox rushing prospects to the big leagues. It's legit. This is, after all, the same organization that tried to force-fit Carson Fulmer into the major league bullpen last summer when he clearly was not yet ready for the task.

I've stated many times that I have not embraced this rebuilding project, and the reason for it is my lack of trust that the regime will do things right.
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