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  #31  
Old 07-17-2017, 10:36 AM
Bob Roarman Bob Roarman is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I just wonder how all these high minded brow beaters are going to react if the Sox are still mired in defeat come 2020 what ever the hell the lineup may be at that time. A few more 90-100 or more loss seasons in a row will grate on you, as the man in the commercial used to say "I guarantee it." They picked a lane. Whoppee ding dong. It isn't going to make the Sox any more watchable in the near term and it doesn't make success in the longer term a given. Of course I hope it all works out. The Sox need a minimum of 3 of their highly touted prospects to pan out, 4 is even better. They also need to string together some Larry Himes quality drafts in a row. Is it all doable? Yes, but a long ways from a sure bet.
Well they were an 84 loss team last year even with the mirage of the first 20 something games. 87 the year before that. 89 losses before that. Wanna keep going? Because it doesn't get any prettier. And that was with Sale and Quintana. That wasn't getting old? That wasn't grating? That wasn't making you think "Hmm maybe this route isn't working" ? How many more of those seasons did you want? Because that's exactly what you were gonna get if they didn't go for the full rebuild.

They were going NOWHERE, with or without those guys. Would you have preferred more lost seasons like that instead and only realizing when it's too late that they should've blown it up? I don't understand what people were expecting. That they were gonna compete?

They've rebuilt their farm system over one offseason and halfway through this season with the best talent you could've POSSIBLY hoped for if a team were to go this route. Best talent you possibly could've hoped for. From the basement to the top of the league. In less than a year.

And the one thing I wouldn't really worry about is pitching. If there's anything we know about the White Sox and what they can actually do well, it's develop pitching. They've built and re-built a lot of players that were nothing but guys that teams didn't want and made them into good to great pitchers. Even Sale, as regarded as he was, there were doubts about him among scouts that he wouldn't be able to hold up. It's just gonna take a few years, which is exactly what they have.
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  #32  
Old 07-17-2017, 11:11 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is online now
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Originally Posted by Bob Roarman View Post
Well they were an 84 loss team last year even with the mirage of the first 20 something games. 87 the year before that. 89 losses before that. Wanna keep going? Because it doesn't get any prettier. And that was with Sale and Quintana. That wasn't getting old? That wasn't grating? That wasn't making you think "Hmm maybe this route isn't working" ? How many more of those seasons did you want? Because that's exactly what you were gonna get if they didn't go for the full rebuild.

They were going NOWHERE, with or without those guys. Would you have preferred more lost seasons like that instead and only realizing when it's too late that they should've blown it up? I don't understand what people were expecting. That they were gonna compete?

They've rebuilt their farm system over one offseason and halfway through this season with the best talent you could've POSSIBLY hoped for if a team were to go this route. Best talent you possibly could've hoped for. From the basement to the top of the league. In less than a year.

And the one thing I wouldn't really worry about is pitching. If there's anything we know about the White Sox and what they can actually do well, it's develop pitching. They've built and re-built a lot of players that were nothing but guys that teams didn't want and made them into good to great pitchers. Even Sale, as regarded as he was, there were doubts about him among scouts that he wouldn't be able to hold up. It's just gonna take a few years, which is exactly what they have.


Well said.
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  #33  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:11 PM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
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Originally Posted by Bob Roarman View Post
Well they were an 84 loss team last year even with the mirage of the first 20 something games. 87 the year before that. 89 losses before that. Wanna keep going? Because it doesn't get any prettier. And that was with Sale and Quintana. That wasn't getting old? That wasn't grating? That wasn't making you think "Hmm maybe this route isn't working" ? How many more of those seasons did you want? Because that's exactly what you were gonna get if they didn't go for the full rebuild.

They were going NOWHERE, with or without those guys. Would you have preferred more lost seasons like that instead and only realizing when it's too late that they should've blown it up? I don't understand what people were expecting. That they were gonna compete?

They've rebuilt their farm system over one offseason and halfway through this season with the best talent you could've POSSIBLY hoped for if a team were to go this route. Best talent you possibly could've hoped for. From the basement to the top of the league. In less than a year.

And the one thing I wouldn't really worry about is pitching. If there's anything we know about the White Sox and what they can actually do well, it's develop pitching. They've built and re-built a lot of players that were nothing but guys that teams didn't want and made them into good to great pitchers. Even Sale, as regarded as he was, there were doubts about him among scouts that he wouldn't be able to hold up. It's just gonna take a few years, which is exactly what they have.
I wish I was as confident as you are about the White Sox pitching. In the last 48 games the White Sox starting rotation has a ERA of 5.80. This starting rotation looks like it will be the worse White Sox rotation since 1970, the year the team lost 106 games. If Hahn trades off Robertson and the other members of our bullpen this could turn out to be one of the worse pitching staffs in modern day MLB. Who are they going to bring up to replace these guys? Carson Fulmer with his 6.ERA?
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  #34  
Old 07-17-2017, 12:35 PM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is offline
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I wish I was as confident as you are about the White Sox pitching. In the last 48 games the White Sox starting rotation has a ERA of 5.80. This starting rotation looks like it will be the worse White Sox rotation since 1970, the year the team lost 106 games. If Hahn trades off Robertson and the other members of our bullpen this could turn out to be one of the worse pitching staffs in modern day MLB. Who are they going to bring up to replace these guys? Carson Fulmer with his 6.ERA?
Hopefully they bring up no one. Because this year's team being bad is anywhere from irrelevant to a plus. What matters is what the crop of prospects on the farm do and maximizing their development. The only pitcher at the major league level whose performance matters is Rodon. If they set a record for worst staff in modern day MLB or if Derek Holland has a 2d half that vaults him into Cy Young Contention, it matters little (except in the sense that he'd have trade value).

In terms of 2020 (aka the title of the thread) pitching, what matters is how Rodon does, and then how Kopech, Lopez, Dunning, Hansen, Giolito, Cease, etc do and how Burdi recovers.
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  #35  
Old 07-17-2017, 01:17 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is online now
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Hopefully they bring up no one. Because this year's team being bad is anywhere from irrelevant to a plus. What matters is what the crop of prospects on the farm do and maximizing their development. The only pitcher at the major league level whose performance matters is Rodon. If they set a record for worst staff in modern day MLB or if Derek Holland has a 2d half that vaults him into Cy Young Contention, it matters little (except in the sense that he'd have trade value).

In terms of 2020 (aka the title of the thread) pitching, what matters is how Rodon does, and then how Kopech, Lopez, Dunning, Hansen, Giolito, Cease, etc do and how Burdi recovers.
Another well said post. The only thing that really matters during this rebuild phase is the future, lose 85 games or lose 105 games it really doesn't matter this year or next year.

I know some will be embarrassed in the event the later happens but life isn't fair. You pay the price during a rebuild. Personally I suspect that's one of the biggest factors for some, the embarrassment that the Sox have become as compared to the Cubs.

I understand the angst but it was time to change course. The Sox have made the decision so let's enjoy the ride and hope it works out in the end.
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  #36  
Old 07-17-2017, 01:39 PM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I just wonder how all these high minded brow beaters are going to react if the Sox are still mired in defeat come 2020 what ever the hell the lineup may be at that time. A few more 90-100 or more loss seasons in a row will grate on you, as the man in the commercial used to say "I guarantee it." They picked a lane. Whoppee ding dong. It isn't going to make the Sox any more watchable in the near term and it doesn't make success in the longer term a given. Of course I hope it all works out. The Sox need a minimum of 3 of their highly touted prospects to pan out, 4 is even better. They also need to string together some Larry Himes quality drafts in a row. Is it all doable? Yes, but a long ways from a sure bet.
There are no sure bets - regardless of strategy - period. They could have kept Sale, Eaton, and Q, added the 3 most sought-after free agents, and still be sitting home during the post-season.

It's not that difficult - the Sox poor drafting, terrible farm system, and poor FA signings put them in the position they're in today. They had 2 choices - continue to try to buy their way into contention by signing the likes of Todd Frazier, Adam Dunn, Melky Cabrera, etc., or they could try to build something more sustainable and longer-lasting by revamping their farm system. I really can't believe there are fans that would have opted for the latter.

The other part of the free-agency approach is that you not only have to pony up the cash, but the player has to agree to come. Furthermore, the FA crop in '17 was bad and it might be worse in '18. I'd rather they roll the dice on Moncada and Jiminez than throw a bunch of money at Upton or Cespedes.
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  #37  
Old 07-17-2017, 01:49 PM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
There are no sure bets - regardless of strategy - period. They could have kept Sale, Eaton, and Q, added the 3 most sought-after free agents, and still be sitting home during the post-season.

It's not that difficult - the Sox poor drafting, terrible farm system, and poor FA signings put them in the position they're in today. They had 2 choices - continue to try to buy their way into contention by signing the likes of Todd Frazier, Adam Dunn, Melky Cabrera, etc., or they could try to build something more sustainable and longer-lasting by revamping their farm system. I really can't believe there are fans that would have opted for the latter.

The other part of the free-agency approach is that you not only have to pony up the cash, but the player has to agree to come. Furthermore, the FA crop in '17 was bad and it might be worse in '18. I'd rather they roll the dice on Moncada and Jiminez than throw a bunch of money at Upton or Cespedes.
Another factor inhibiting the use of FA to "retool" in 2017-18 was the lack of depth in the system. You couldn't realistically fill that in FA, so you had a combination of weak FA and even if you got 1-2 top players, not really filling your various holes. The depth is something that is fixable via draft and scouting, but even assuming you make those changes (which seems to have happened), by the time those changes yield anything, you're a couple years out meaning your FAs are either older or contracts have expired, Sale contract is expiring, and Q contract is like a year away from expiring.

Instead, dealing them let you maximize the chance that when the draft/scouting changes yield fruit, you have top-end talent in both the rotation and lineup/field and what should be a pretty deep chest to hit FA to fill holes with. And 2019-20 FA is going to have a lot more talent (of course pending guys resigning with existing teams, etc).

Now whether or not the changes the Sox have made will do anything is debatable. But from the hole they had dug themselves, this is about as good a strategy (and execution) as one could hope for IMO.
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  #38  
Old 07-17-2017, 02:10 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
It's not that difficult - the Sox poor drafting, terrible farm system, and poor FA signings put them in the position they're in today. They had 2 choices - continue to try to buy their way into contention by signing the likes of Todd Frazier, Adam Dunn, Melky Cabrera, etc., or they could try to build something more sustainable and longer-lasting by revamping their farm system. I really can't believe there are fans that would have opted for the latter.

You know what? They could have drafted well ( not by how much its costs) and straightened out the minor league system since at least 2006 along with doing what they did. They had the resources to do so and also the push of a world series championship. Its all on ownership.
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  #39  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:06 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Another well said post. The only thing that really matters during this rebuild phase is the future, lose 85 games or lose 105 games it really doesn't matter this year or next year.

I know some will be embarrassed in the event the later happens but life isn't fair. You pay the price during a rebuild.
Go up to an Astros fan and ask them if they give a poop about their team losing 107 games in 2012, 111 games in 2013 and 92 games in 2014...
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  #40  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:18 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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You know what? They could have drafted well ( not by how much its costs) and straightened out the minor league system since at least 2006 along with doing what they did. They had the resources to do so and also the push of a world series championship. Its all on ownership.
Yes, that's true, but it didn't happen, for a variety of reasons. The Sox have chosen not to fire the Williams/Hahn management team for this, and they almost certainly won't do so, either, or at least not unless/until this rebuild is deemed a failure by none other than Jerry Reinsdorf.

Keep in mind that JR's emphasis on loyalty/patience is likely driven/exacerbated by his experiences earlier in his ownership tenure, specifically firing Tony LaRussa, who turned out to be an excellent manager and who JR regrets firing. They also didn't find ways to keep Jeff Torborg, Terry Francona, and Dave Dombrowski, and JR probably regrets allowing them to leave the organization as well. Also, he hasn't fired a Sox GM since Larry Himes after the 1990 season.

There is no point to crying over spilled milk. For better or worse, JR has entrusted the milk cleanup to KW and Hahn.
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  #41  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:25 PM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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You know what? They could have drafted well ( not by how much its costs) and straightened out the minor league system since at least 2006 along with doing what they did. They had the resources to do so and also the push of a world series championship. Its all on ownership.
You're absolutely right and it's been a frustrating decade to be a Sox fan. This is a train wreck of their own making. But there's no point in looking backward.

Whether it is due to Rick Hahn's influence or the team finally learned it's lesson but they're unquestionably more focused on fixing/building their farm system. They also appear to be drafting better/smarter.

I can't think of many teams that have succeeded at a high level for a sustained period of time that relied heavily on free agency. You look at the stalwarts of most of the top teams (position-wise) and they're homegrown.
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  #42  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:31 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Keep in mind that JR's emphasis on loyalty/patience is likely driven/exacerbated by his experiences earlier in his ownership tenure, specifically firing Tony LaRussa, who turned out to be an excellent manager and who JR regrets firing. They also didn't find ways to keep Jeff Torborg, Terry Francona, and Dave Dombrowski, and JR probably regrets allowing them to leave the organization as well. Also, he hasn't fired a Sox GM since Larry Himes after the 1990 season.
I read the loyalty stuff constantly, does anyone truly know that this is true? Why couldnt this be controllability instead? The people you mentioned above are all highly regarded in their field of work and dont seem like the type that want to be told what to do and how to do it. Since 1990 maybe he learned to hire people that were willing to be controlled by him to have a lifelong job.
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  #43  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:35 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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I read the loyalty stuff constantly, does anyone truly know that this is true? Why couldnt this be controllability instead? The people you mentioned above are all highly regarded in their field of work and dont seem like the type that want to be told what to do and how to do it. Since 1990 maybe he learned to hire people that were willing to be controlled by him to have a lifelong job.
Do Williams and Hahn strike you as the type of people that like being controlled? Because they don't to me.
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  #44  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:38 PM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Go up to an Astros fan and ask them if they give a poop about their team losing 107 games in 2012, 111 games in 2013 and 92 games in 2014...
Or a Cubs fan. Most of us laughed at the Cubs when they were bottoming out 4-5 years ago, but I don't think a single Cubs fan has any regrets now.
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  #45  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:45 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Do Williams and Hahn strike you as the type of people that like being controlled? Because they don't to me.

Well Hahn was with the organization how long before he became GM? I never heard that he turned down a GM job or was offered one. Williams a couple years ago was in the running supposedly for a big toronto job and nothing ever happened. I think Williams along with Harrelson have always been reinsdorfs mouthpieces and puppets. The cant spend a buck if you only have 50 cent, I have always attributed to reinsdorf, not williams. Sorry I rambled on, Im just not in a good mood lately because its a long time ahead that I will have meaningful Sox baseball to watch and its all on ownership. Finally, Yes I believe they are both being controlled.
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