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  #76  
Old 08-01-2019, 11:43 AM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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How is it even possible for anyone to try to argue that Hahn messed up by not trading _____ for ______ when we don't even know if that was an option available to him?

I can't imagine going through life this miserable particularly when the Sox are on the precipice of fielding a very young, talented, and exciting team that was wholly constructed by this front office that some of you seem hell bent on running down every chance you get.
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  #77  
Old 08-01-2019, 11:49 AM
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thomas35forever thomas35forever is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
How is it even possible for anyone to try to argue that Hahn messed up by not trading _____ for ______ when we don't even know if that was an option available to him?

I can't imagine going through life this miserable particularly when the Sox are on the precipice of fielding a very young, talented, and exciting team that was wholly constructed by this front office that some of you seem hell bent on running down every chance you get.
People just don't like the front office for one reason or another, so they'll tear it down every chance they get.
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  #78  
Old 08-01-2019, 11:51 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
I don't view the non trade of Colome as this at all. I think that Hahn was looking to have a team come in and overpay for him due to all of the elite closers not moving (Yates, Hand, Vazquez, etc), but that didn't happen. He missed an opportunity to get around the correct value of Colome in a player like Allard or Wentz. Also a possibility that his scouts didn't like either of those players much and wanted the Phillies to part with a Adonis Medina, which would have been a bit above Colome's value. At the end of the day, he valued having an almost set back of the bullpen for next year (Colome, Bummer, Marshall, Fry) over getting a young minor league starter that would still be a long shot to be a mainstay in the rotation.

Hope he has a plan to get much needed MLB ready or close pitching depth in the offseason.

He can also trade Colome, Bummer, or Marshall in the offseason, though likely for a lesser price due to less control. Unless of course any of them pitch out of their mind the remainder of the season.
Marshall and Fry can't be your back end guys. Neither of them is having a particularly great year. Talented sure, MR types yes (Jace may be more of a loogy) but they aren't set up guys.
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  #79  
Old 08-01-2019, 11:58 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
How is it even possible for anyone to try to argue that Hahn messed up by not trading _____ for ______ when we don't even know if that was an option available to him?

I can't imagine going through life this miserable particularly when the Sox are on the precipice of fielding a very young, talented, and exciting team that was wholly constructed by this front office that some of you seem hell bent on running down every chance you get.
I have been an advocate of this rebuild since long before it started. I think I was the first person on WSI to call for it and I laid out a plan that is damn close to what’s happened. I have also been a reliable supporter of Hahn, even as I have criticized KW and JR and others.

But the fact is, it’s a results business. Hahn had a boatload of cash last offseason and some trade bait and did not bring in any long-term pieces, unless you count McCann, which looks like blind luck. Instead he pissed away money on Alonso, Jay, Nova, Herrera, Santana and others. And at the deadline, he failed to improve the team one iota, despite being (unambiguously) a seller. He needs to make moves, but all he has done is wait for the prospects to improve. That’s unconscionably lazy and negligent.

Maybe JR has tied his hands, but I think that’s too convenient an excuse.
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  #80  
Old 08-01-2019, 12:14 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
I have been an advocate of this rebuild since long before it started. I think I was the first person on WSI to call for it and I laid out a plan that is damn close to whatís happened. I have also been a reliable supporter of Hahn, even as I have criticized KW and JR and others.

But the fact is, itís a results business. Hahn had a boatload of cash last offseason and some trade bait and did not bring in any long-term pieces, unless you count McCann, which looks like blind luck. Instead he pissed away money on Alonso, Jay, Nova, Herrera, Santana and others. And at the deadline, he failed to improve the team one iota, despite being (unambiguously) a seller. He needs to make moves, but all he has done is wait for the prospects to improve. Thatís unconscionably lazy and negligent.

Maybe JR has tied his hands, but I think thatís too convenient an excuse.
McCann, while fun, also is really looking more like a good stretch than a long term answer. A lot of his peripherals indicated as much as well. Love him for his D and work with the staff, GREAT guy by all accounts, but don't count on this again IMHO.

I am also with you, I was/am a huge Hahn fan, but we are seeing a lot of holes showing in the rebuild, which you always will, and zero ability to fill them, which you HAVE to.
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  #81  
Old 08-01-2019, 12:22 PM
RCWHITESOX RCWHITESOX is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
I have been an advocate of this rebuild since long before it started. I think I was the first person on WSI to call for it and I laid out a plan that is damn close to whatís happened. I have also been a reliable supporter of Hahn, even as I have criticized KW and JR and others.

But the fact is, itís a results business. Hahn had a boatload of cash last offseason and some trade bait and did not bring in any long-term pieces, unless you count McCann, which looks like blind luck. Instead he pissed away money on Alonso, Jay, Nova, Herrera, Santana and others. And at the deadline, he failed to improve the team one iota, despite being (unambiguously) a seller. He needs to make moves, but all he has done is wait for the prospects to improve. Thatís unconscionably lazy and negligent.

Maybe JR has tied his hands, but I think thatís too convenient an excuse.
Thatís all great in theory but who do they have on this roster of expendable players that would have commanded that kind of return. Teams are not going to trade top line prospects for a above average closer and set up guys. When Atlanta traded for Greene heís a more proven closer than the Soxís closer. I do agree with you that they have to bring in veteran talent either through trades or free agency for next year; especially starting pitching.
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  #82  
Old 08-01-2019, 12:23 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
I have been an advocate of this rebuild since long before it started. I think I was the first person on WSI to call for it and I laid out a plan that is damn close to whatís happened. I have also been a reliable supporter of Hahn, even as I have criticized KW and JR and others.

But the fact is, itís a results business. Hahn had a boatload of cash last offseason and some trade bait and did not bring in any long-term pieces, unless you count McCann, which looks like blind luck. Instead he pissed away money on Alonso, Jay, Nova, Herrera, Santana and others. And at the deadline, he failed to improve the team one iota, despite being (unambiguously) a seller. He needs to make moves, but all he has done is wait for the prospects to improve. Thatís unconscionably lazy and negligent.

Maybe JR has tied his hands, but I think thatís too convenient an excuse.
He may have simply figured this was the final year of waiting and not wanted to spend a ton of money outside of Machado (please let's not get back into that again). We know why he brought in those players. Nova has actually been solid over the last 2+ months with an ERA just over 5 in May, under 5 in June and 3.16 in July. His April was horrific and it bloated his ERA but he's worked it back down to 5.23 and looks like he will end up close to his career averages if he continues to pitch like has recently.

Santana didn't cost the team much at all because they cut him very early.

Right now the team is probably back in tank mode the last two months of the season. They'll work on continuing development for the young players and see if they can get Lopez and Cease locked in for next season and take the highest draft pick they can get hoping to get one more close to ready piece.

Of course if those young players get hot, that might mess up the draft pick idea and that would completely and utterly suck...

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  #83  
Old 08-01-2019, 12:35 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Martin's numbers this season are fantastic. Another K machine with next to no walks.

I'm just making an argument I may or may not agree with. My overall point is that we can't assume Colome was more or less coveted than many of these other relievers, and there were *so* many available this year.
Martin is in a walk year, though. Plus, I think heís another guy who has pulled a career year out of his ass and will regress. At least Colomť does have a noteworthy track record.
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  #84  
Old 08-01-2019, 12:36 PM
asindc asindc is offline
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Well, I just can't get with the idea that any GM in any sport says to the owner, "I realize that you have given me $400 million to spend on player salaries this offseason, but I just don't want to spend that much. Thanks anyway."



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  #85  
Old 08-01-2019, 01:01 PM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
How is it even possible for anyone to try to argue that Hahn messed up by not trading _____ for ______ when we don't even know if that was an option available to him?

I can't imagine going through life this miserable particularly when the Sox are on the precipice of fielding a very young, talented, and exciting team that was wholly constructed by this front office that some of you seem hell bent on running down every chance you get.
Please. A gazillion relievers got moved at the deadline, many of them for real value. We don't know exactly who people were willing to give up for Colome, but we know roughly what his market value is.
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  #86  
Old 08-01-2019, 01:17 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Probably not a ton. But he's not worth a ton. They certainly weren't going to get anything close to what they paid for him. Still, whatever his value is, this was the time to get it.

Nothing lined up....except that somehow they were able to line up a salary dump and a dump international money the FO couldn't be bothered to spend. Hahn's 2 best prospects Tatis and Robert - international. Throw in Moncada and Eloy - international. But, who needs that market?
Maybe if you keep saying this it will come true. I know you will keep trying.


Edited to add that a simple Google search shows that the Sox did indeed spend some of their 2019-2020 international bonus pool money. Their total pool was $5,398,300. Here's a link to the signings they made: http://www.chicagonow.com/future-sox...ning-day-2019/

Last edited by kobo; 08-01-2019 at 02:18 PM.
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  #87  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:19 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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When Atlanta traded for Greene he’s a more proven closer than the Sox’s closer.
This is complete, utter nonsense. I can't believe people keep repeating it.

Shane Greene, career 1.7 WAR, 4.10 FIP, 4.53 ERA, 22-27 with 65 saves.

Alex Colome, career 7.1 WAR, 3.78 FIP, 3.02 ERA, 25-20 with 117 saves.

They are the same age.

Atlanta even threw in Travis Demeritte for Greene.

Oh, and Martin has put up these career numbers: 1.7 WAR, 3.74 FIP, 4.58 ERA, 1-9 with 5 saves. He's also two years older.

Last edited by A. Cavatica; 08-01-2019 at 03:24 PM.
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  #88  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:32 PM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
Please. A gazillion relievers got moved at the deadline, many of them for real value. We don't know exactly who people were willing to give up for Colome, but we know roughly what his market value is.
No you don't. What another team coveted and whom they put Colome ahead of isn't known by you or any of us. You don't get to play the 'well, I think Colome is better than ____ and _____ got ____ for him so we should have made that deal. Why make up stuff to support your narrative?

Furthermore, it's entirely possible that the FO feels that they have a chance to compete next year. If that's the case, why would they move Colone for anyone less than an MLB ready bullpen arm or fringe starter?
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  #89  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:40 PM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
I have been an advocate of this rebuild since long before it started. I think I was the first person on WSI to call for it and I laid out a plan that is damn close to whatís happened. I have also been a reliable supporter of Hahn, even as I have criticized KW and JR and others.

But the fact is, itís a results business. Hahn had a boatload of cash last offseason and some trade bait and did not bring in any long-term pieces, unless you count McCann, which looks like blind luck. Instead he pissed away money on Alonso, Jay, Nova, Herrera, Santana and others. And at the deadline, he failed to improve the team one iota, despite being (unambiguously) a seller. He needs to make moves, but all he has done is wait for the prospects to improve. Thatís unconscionably lazy and negligent.

Maybe JR has tied his hands, but I think thatís too convenient an excuse.
It's a convenient excuse because it makes a lot of sense. To Asindc's point, what seems more likely to you - Hahn is inexplicably trying to save a billionaire a few buck to his own detriment or that he's been provided a budget that he has to work within? This just isn't that hard.

This was never supposed to be a year in which they made a run at the division. Even adding Machado wouldn't have changed that fact. It makes a lot of sense for them to keep their powder dry for '20.

Now if they aren't serious players (i.e. no getting cute with their offer) in the Cole sweepstakes and make no serious efforts to improve this team in the off-season with quality acquisitions then I will be the one leading the pitchfork brigade.
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  #90  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:46 PM
JermaineDye05 JermaineDye05 is offline
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I'm wondering if not only are Hahn's hands tied financially thanks to JR. But I also firmly believe that maybe he's gunshy now to make any type of deal given the complete and utter failure that was the Machado pursuit and the fact that Tatis Jr. is having a hell of a season in San Diego.
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