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  #376  
Old 10-29-2018, 10:20 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Again, this is something that a GM should not be concerning himself with when he assembles a team. Let the marketing people worry about what to do with the optics. Just worry about winning games.
We're talking about two different things and not sure the single stolen base, bunt him to third, sacrifice fly thing is going to get much interest from the kids these days either. They live life at a faster pace where instant gratification and information is much more desired. It's a different world when all news is at your fingertips within minutes of it happening and everyone walks around with a Playstation in their pocket.
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  #377  
Old 10-30-2018, 01:38 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Again, this is something that a GM should not be concerning himself with when he assembles a team. Let the marketing people worry about what to do with the optics. Just worry about winning games.

You're right in that teams have to try through the path of least resistance within the rules. The problem is that teams have figured out they don't have to play real baseball to be successful at baseball. Complain about the opinions of columnists and vocal fans, but baseball is unique among American spectator sports. Baseball alone, amid the increased desire for instant gratification, is slowing down.


The analysts who figured out there was a competitive advantage to the three-outcome player did baseball a disservice running it through a dull machine. If baseball wants casual fans to care about teams winning, it needs to close up a loophole that is killing the major league game. It's going to have to figure out a way to turn three-outcome players into two-outcome players who will learn to (expletive) hit or be replaced by players who can.


Put together a lineup of solid contact hitters with speed, defense and strong pitching, and you will win a lot of games. And more people will care because it will be more fun to watch.
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  #378  
Old 10-30-2018, 04:50 AM
MarksBrokenFoot MarksBrokenFoot is offline
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If you want to emphasize contact, and I certainly do, you change the dimensions of the field. Put the walls so far back that all the shortstops and second baseman can't make a living swinging like a maniac. Force the game back into a place where hitting the ball is a valuable skill.
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  #379  
Old 10-30-2018, 05:06 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Again, this is something that a GM should not be concerning himself with when he assembles a team. Let the marketing people worry about what to do with the optics. Just worry about winning games.
I agree: GM's should construct a winning team. I do not agree that engaging in a race to the bottom philosophy is the best way to win games.

Pitching, defense and balance through the batting order is the best way to win.
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  #380  
Old 10-30-2018, 07:31 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz
Pitching, defense and balance through the batting order is the best way to win.
Except the data suggests that is not true. Pitching, defense, and hitting as many extra-base hits as possible is the best way to win. That is the entire point of the debate. Willingly replacing a higher-power, lower-contact hitter with a lower-power, higher-contact hitter for the sake of achieving a “balanced lineup” makes that lineup weaker, not stronger.
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  #381  
Old 10-30-2018, 11:32 AM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
You're right in that teams have to try through the path of least resistance within the rules. The problem is that teams have figured out they don't have to play real baseball to be successful at baseball. Complain about the opinions of columnists and vocal fans, but baseball is unique among American spectator sports. Baseball alone, amid the increased desire for instant gratification, is slowing down.


The analysts who figured out there was a competitive advantage to the three-outcome player did baseball a disservice running it through a dull machine. If baseball wants casual fans to care about teams winning, it needs to close up a loophole that is killing the major league game. It's going to have to figure out a way to turn three-outcome players into two-outcome players who will learn to (expletive) hit or be replaced by players who can.


Put together a lineup of solid contact hitters with speed, defense and strong pitching, and you will win a lot of games. And more people will care because it will be more fun to watch.
1. What is real baseball? As has been demonstrated throughout the years baseball is an always evolving game. There are different ways to approach the game and what was done 20-30 years ago may not be the way it's done today. Does that mean what is being played today isn't "real" baseball? No. It means people have a predetermined idea of how the game should be played and when it's not played that way then criticism emerges.


2. Is there a team that currently has a lineup like that? And if so, is there one team or several teams? Because I just don't see there being enough of those type of players to fill rosters for the majority of teams in MLB. I'd argue that hasn't happened at any point in the history of the game. You might be able to find a couple teams where that happened for a period of time, but that would be more exception than norm.
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  #382  
Old 10-30-2018, 03:00 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by kobo View Post
1. What is real baseball? As has been demonstrated throughout the years baseball is an always evolving game. There are different ways to approach the game and what was done 20-30 years ago may not be the way it's done today. Does that mean what is being played today isn't "real" baseball? No. It means people have a predetermined idea of how the game should be played and when it's not played that way then criticism emerges.


2. Is there a team that currently has a lineup like that? And if so, is there one team or several teams? Because I just don't see there being enough of those type of players to fill rosters for the majority of teams in MLB. I'd argue that hasn't happened at any point in the history of the game. You might be able to find a couple teams where that happened for a period of time, but that would be more exception than norm.

First of all, there were lineups like that in the middle of the decade, and they won championships. The Royals and Giants put the ball in play. It helped they played in bigger home parks that stretched out the defense, but they didn't just win at home. Move the fences back and you get more room for singles to drop in front of the outfielders etc. The Royals won the World Series the year after they lost to the Giants in the World Series.


The Giants had better starting pitching. The Royals had a better bullpen and better defense. The Giants would have beaten the Cubs in 2016, but by then they had no bullpen. That isn't a vague judgement. The Giants blew a ninth-inning lead against the Cubs in Game 4 NLDS with their lights-out postseason starter scheduled to go in Game 5. To get to the postseason, the Giants filled out their September postseason roster with relief pitchers in a scramble to protect leads.


The Giants won three championships from 2010 and 2014. The Royals went to the World Series in 2014 and won it in 2015. This wasn't the exception. This was the trend. But it requires finding and developing contact hitters in an age when fewer Americans are growing up playing baseball. Lorenzo Cain was an athlete who never even owned a glove until high school and took a while to develop. He was signed by the Brewers, but the Royals ended up with a few such players. If you build a solid contact hitting lineup without the pitching, and it won't work. Putting together a solid starting rotation isn't easy. Putting together a solid bullpen that doesn't burn out in three or four months may be harder. The Tigers, for example, never seemed able earlier in this decade when they were up in this decade. And it may prevent the White Sox rebuild from finding any success.


As for the concept of real baseball, I would concede that is a term that can irritate some. But the concept of walks as an offensive weapon is causing the game to devolve into a much slower-paced game than the one that critics used to criticize as being too slow.



Following baseball is not just about seeing your team win. It's about enjoying your team win. While having lunch out this summer, I watched an inning of a Cubs game on television. Four players came up and there were only three swings in the inning, only one of which was put into play. Maybe I would have gotten more out of it if I had beer with my lunch. There may be those who get enough out of simply winning and those who enjoy winning if they have a calculator in one hand, but it's not a game that sparked my excitement when I was a kid and it's not going to attract and sustain casual fans.
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