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  #91  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:32 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is online now
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Lip,
Please stop moving the goalposts. Can you really not wrap your head around the fact we are talking about players who are equal in other aspects of the game and pitching independent.

Two players who have basically the same defensive skill sets playing the same position you would want the guy who hits for more power over the guy who hits for a higher average but has little pop.

Do you really not understand this basic point which has been repeated over and over and over again in this thread or are you intentionally muddying the waters to prove something else?
Not moving anything the comments by some are being made in the vacuum of "offense." That's ludicrous.

Offense alone doesn't win **** if you can't pitch, run, play defense.

A team full of stat defined sluggers who hit three home runs a night won't win a lot of games if they can't catch the ball, throw to the right base or figure out someway to score runs when they aren't hitting these 678 foot home runs.

My point is (yet again) BALANCE.

Say it with me everyone!!

I don't get a hoot in hell if everyone of these guys has an 8 million OPB, or UPS or XYZ.

I want balance, some guys who hit for a high average in the lineup, some guys who can run and steal bases putting pressure on the defense, some guys who supply power and some guys who are line drive hitters.

That's MY idea of offense, stats be dammed.

I think that makes my position pretty clear.

We good?
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  #92  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Not moving anything the comments by some are being made in the vacuum of "offense." That's ludicrous.

Offense alone doesn't win **** if you can't pitch, run, play defense.

A team full of stat defined sluggers who hit three home runs a night won't win a lot of games if they can't catch the ball, throw to the right base or figure out someway to score runs when they aren't hitting these 678 foot home runs.

My point is (yet again) BALANCE.

Say it with me everyone!!

I don't get a hoot in hell if everyone of these guys has an 8 million OPB, or UPS or XYZ.

I want balance, some guys who hit for a high average in the lineup, some guys who can run and steal bases putting pressure on the defense, some guys who supply power and some guys who are line drive hitters.

That's MY idea of offense, stats be dammed.

I think that makes my position pretty clear.

We good?
Get that logical thinking out of here. This is an internet message board, and we don't take kindly to that around here.
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  #93  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:53 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1
That's MY idea of offense, stats be dammed.

I think that makes my position pretty clear.

We good?
No, we’re not good. Your idea of offense has been given fair consideration. It has been deemed inferior by the people in charge of baseball teams. It has been rejected as a result. I want my favorite baseball team to avoid it like the plague.

I know the 1959 White Sox won an AL pennant while hitting only 97 home runs, but that was 59 years ago. Those days are not returning. Stop pining for them. Besides, that one isolated pennant was smothered by three decades of Yankee excellence, so maybe we should hold off on the coronation ceremony for that 1959 team.
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  #94  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Not moving anything the comments by some are being made in the vacuum of "offense." That's ludicrous.

Offense alone doesn't win **** if you can't pitch, run, play defense.

A team full of stat defined sluggers who hit three home runs a night won't win a lot of games if they can't catch the ball, throw to the right base or figure out someway to score runs when they aren't hitting these 678 foot home runs.

My point is (yet again) BALANCE.

Say it with me everyone!!

I don't get a hoot in hell if everyone of these guys has an 8 million OPB, or UPS or XYZ.

I want balance, some guys who hit for a high average in the lineup, some guys who can run and steal bases putting pressure on the defense, some guys who supply power and some guys who are line drive hitters.

That's MY idea of offense, stats be dammed.

I think that makes my position pretty clear.

We good?
It makes your position perfectly clear. You're going to have the argument you WANT to have instead of responding to the discussion as it is happening.

You so desperately need to believe that everyone here talking about JUST WHAT WORKS BEST OFFENSIVELY (or "in the vacuum of offense" as you put it) doesn't care about pitching or running or defense or anything else when NOT A SINGLE PERSON has made that claim. See just because we want to have a discussion about just that part of baseball doesn't mean we don't think the rest matters too, but it's what we're talking about here.

So you set up this strawman and now you've knocked it down real pretty and sweet. Great job.. .... ...

As to the part of the points in your post about offense that you actually made that's at least on topic (which is appreciated), the stats don't seem to bear that out and the managers and coaches who are running the game disagree with you. You might read that article from a players perspective up the way. It's enlightening.
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  #95  
Old 07-11-2018, 01:19 AM
chisox59 chisox59 is offline
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Originally Posted by Marqhead View Post
Players take:

https://es.pn/2MWhQAI
This is what I got from the player’s perspective. They’re all pull hitters. They don’t know how to play the game any other way because they were never taught. I understand that. These players were good enough to make the show have always been stars and could hit for power. In high school or college they were better than others and could beat any shift (if there was such a thing at the lower levels) and this is what got them scouted, drafted, signed and promoted. This is how they produced runs and now that the competition is tougher they don’t get the same results. Kyle Seager said there were no shifts when he debuted in 2011. There probably weren’t shifts on him because the book on how to position against him had not been written. When the gurus saw what his makeup was he began to face shifts that played directly into his style and began to affect his numbers. I’m sure the same thing happened to other players like this. Since they’re all pull hitters the changes they made had to do with the now infamous launch angle. If there are no holes to hit the ball through then you have to hit the ball over the shift but you’re still pulling it. I remember a man named Paul Konerko who hit over 400 home runs in his career. He was a definite power guy but when he was hitting his best he would hit a lot of balls into right center field. I don’t remember comments being made about how they were shifting against him like they did with Jim Thome or Adam Dunn. They couldn’t because Paulie didn’t try to pull everything. It takes practice to learn how to do this but players aren’t instructed in this anymore. Most guys don’t spend nearly enough time in the minors where it should be taught. This is because they are already in their 20’s when they’re drafted and there is more of a rush to get them to the majors and I doubt that they’re shifted against a lot . In the old days (I know we’re not going back to them) there wasn’t an emphasis on college baseball. Most players were drafted out of high school and spent 5 of 6 years in the minor leagues honing their craft. Not everyone has the same abilities so some learn and some don’t. Of course there was no rule 5 draft back then so players weren’t promoted nearly as quickly. Sorry for being so long winded but the point I’m trying to make is that these players can be gap hitters the other way and still get the coveted double that Daniel Murphy talks about. It doesn’t always have to be to right field. If you do it enough the massive shifting will go away.
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  #96  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Besides, that one isolated pennant was smothered by three decades of Yankee excellence, so maybe we should hold off on the coronation ceremony for that 1959 team.
They also had 17 straight winning seasons, seven of them with 90+ wins, a bunch of All-Stars, (when making the All-Star team actually wasn't a popularity contest) generally were in a pennant race and weren't an afterthought in their own city.

I'd take that in a ****ing nano second right now as opposed to the **** I've basically seen since 2007.
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  #97  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by chisox59 View Post
This is what I got from the player’s perspective. They’re all pull hitters. They don’t know how to play the game any other way because they were never taught. I understand that. These players were good enough to make the show have always been stars and could hit for power. In high school or college they were better than others and could beat any shift (if there was such a thing at the lower levels) and this is what got them scouted, drafted, signed and promoted. This is how they produced runs and now that the competition is tougher they don’t get the same results. Kyle Seager said there were no shifts when he debuted in 2011. There probably weren’t shifts on him because the book on how to position against him had not been written. When the gurus saw what his makeup was he began to face shifts that played directly into his style and began to affect his numbers. I’m sure the same thing happened to other players like this. Since they’re all pull hitters the changes they made had to do with the now infamous launch angle. If there are no holes to hit the ball through then you have to hit the ball over the shift but you’re still pulling it. I remember a man named Paul Konerko who hit over 400 home runs in his career. He was a definite power guy but when he was hitting his best he would hit a lot of balls into right center field. I don’t remember comments being made about how they were shifting against him like they did with Jim Thome or Adam Dunn. They couldn’t because Paulie didn’t try to pull everything. It takes practice to learn how to do this but players aren’t instructed in this anymore. Most guys don’t spend nearly enough time in the minors where it should be taught. This is because they are already in their 20’s when they’re drafted and there is more of a rush to get them to the majors and I doubt that they’re shifted against a lot . In the old days (I know we’re not going back to them) there wasn’t an emphasis on college baseball. Most players were drafted out of high school and spent 5 of 6 years in the minor leagues honing their craft. Not everyone has the same abilities so some learn and some don’t. Of course there was no rule 5 draft back then so players weren’t promoted nearly as quickly. Sorry for being so long winded but the point I’m trying to make is that these players can be gap hitters the other way and still get the coveted double that Daniel Murphy talks about. It doesn’t always have to be to right field. If you do it enough the massive shifting will go away.
Very, very true.
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  #98  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:44 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chisox59 View Post
This is what I got from the player’s perspective. They’re all pull hitters. They don’t know how to play the game any other way because they were never taught. I understand that. These players were good enough to make the show have always been stars and could hit for power. In high school or college they were better than others and could beat any shift (if there was such a thing at the lower levels) and this is what got them scouted, drafted, signed and promoted. This is how they produced runs and now that the competition is tougher they don’t get the same results. Kyle Seager said there were no shifts when he debuted in 2011. There probably weren’t shifts on him because the book on how to position against him had not been written. When the gurus saw what his makeup was he began to face shifts that played directly into his style and began to affect his numbers. I’m sure the same thing happened to other players like this. Since they’re all pull hitters the changes they made had to do with the now infamous launch angle. If there are no holes to hit the ball through then you have to hit the ball over the shift but you’re still pulling it. I remember a man named Paul Konerko who hit over 400 home runs in his career. He was a definite power guy but when he was hitting his best he would hit a lot of balls into right center field. I don’t remember comments being made about how they were shifting against him like they did with Jim Thome or Adam Dunn. They couldn’t because Paulie didn’t try to pull everything. It takes practice to learn how to do this but players aren’t instructed in this anymore. Most guys don’t spend nearly enough time in the minors where it should be taught. This is because they are already in their 20’s when they’re drafted and there is more of a rush to get them to the majors and I doubt that they’re shifted against a lot . In the old days (I know we’re not going back to them) there wasn’t an emphasis on college baseball. Most players were drafted out of high school and spent 5 of 6 years in the minor leagues honing their craft. Not everyone has the same abilities so some learn and some don’t. Of course there was no rule 5 draft back then so players weren’t promoted nearly as quickly. Sorry for being so long winded but the point I’m trying to make is that these players can be gap hitters the other way and still get the coveted double that Daniel Murphy talks about. It doesn’t always have to be to right field. If you do it enough the massive shifting will go away.
There's other factors too. How many pitchers were teams carrying back then? Hitters were facing a lot less fresh arms and there were 4 man starting rotations with starters generally asked to go deeper in games. Now you're facing specialists all the time and with the DH teams don't need to carry as many bench hitters so bullpens have gotten very deep.

That change will impact what hitters can do.
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  #99  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:14 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile
There's other factors too. How many pitchers were teams carrying back then? Hitters were facing a lot less fresh arms and there were 4 man starting rotations with starters generally asked to go deeper in games. Now you're facing specialists all the time and with the DH teams don't need to carry as many bench hitters so bullpens have gotten very deep.

That change will impact what hitters can do.
Exactly. It’s a helluva lot easier to make contact with an 87-mph fastball the third time you see it than a 97-mph fastball the first time you see it.

This data is from 2015, but it still helps to explain the overall trend.

The swinging-strike rate on fastballs 95-mph or more: 18.8%
The swinging-strike rate on fastballs 94-mph or less: 8.2%

Percentage of fastballs over 95-mph in 2008: 4.82%
Percentage of fastballs over 95-mph in 2015: 9.14%

Swinging-and-missing is not due to some psychological or moral flaw in the minds of major league hitters. It is due to major league hitters seeing better “stuff” than they have ever seen before, and seeing that “stuff” fewer times in a game than they have ever seen it before.

With their offensive approach and skill sets, the 1959 White Sox likely would get their asses handed to them in today’s MLB.
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  #100  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:19 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is online now
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With their offensive approach and skill sets, the 1959 White Sox likely would get their asses handed to them in today’s MLB.
To bad we'll never know. It would blow apart perceptions one way or the other.
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  #101  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:22 PM
Paulwny Paulwny is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
There's other factors too. How many pitchers were teams carrying back then? Hitters were facing a lot less fresh arms and there were 4 man starting rotations with starters generally asked to go deeper in games. Now you're facing specialists all the time and with the DH teams don't need to carry as many bench hitters so bullpens have gotten very deep.

That change will impact what hitters can do.
Unless these "specialists" have on a sox uniform.
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  #102  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1
They also had 17 straight winning seasons, seven of them with 90+ wins, a bunch of All-Stars, (when making the All-Star team actually wasn't a popularity contest) generally were in a pennant race and weren't an afterthought in their own city.

I'd take that in a ****ing nano second right now as opposed to the **** I've basically seen since 2007.
The bad results are not the result of a bad approach, but rather bad execution of the approach. The White Sox have been bad during this stretch because they have hit significantly fewer home runs than their competition during this stretch.

AL rank in HR and overall W-L record:

2018: 11th (30-61)
2017: 13th (67-95)
2016: 13th (78-84)
2015: Dead last (76-86)
2014: 4th (73-89)
2013: 12th (63-99)
2012: 3rd (85-77)
2011: 10th (79-83)
2010: 4th (88-74)
2009: 6th (79-83)
2008: Led the league (89-74, won AL Central)
2007: 2nd (72-90)

2007 and 2014 seem to be the only seasons when the White Sox hit a whole lot of homers and lost a whole lot of games anyway. The other seasons seem to correlate pretty well, including the three winning seasons and the sole postseason appearance during the stretch.
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  #103  
Old 07-12-2018, 01:10 AM
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Screw it then; just play Home Run Derby.
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  #104  
Old 07-12-2018, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox
Screw it then; just play Home Run Derby.
In AA, we often say the following prayer, called the Serenity Prayer:


"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

I think the theme of the Serenity Prayer fits in quite well with fans' attempts to grapple with baseball's paradigm shift. We have no ability to change the way major league GMs prioritize certain players over others, so we have only two options: accept the new reality of the situation, or stop watching baseball.

"Raging against the dying of the light" will only make things worse.
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  #105  
Old 07-12-2018, 10:43 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by asindc View Post
That’s not the approach a hitter should take. It shouldn’t be forced IF the pitcher is hitting his spots on the inside of the zone. But pitchers miss all the time, even in those situations. I prefer a hitter to be prepared to take advantage. Hitting to all fields was not always the “rare” skill it is being made out to be these days. It was simply calling “hitting.”
Honestly at this point I am just gagging on the saber kool aid. I still have a bunch of pages to go through on this thread and I very well may be certifiable by the time I'm finished reading it.
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