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  #16  
Old 05-16-2017, 11:10 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
But wasn't Covey one of those very guys you describe, as a 25 year-old kinda non-prospect Rule 5 pick? I have no issue with the Sox keeping that door revolving, because Covey is just horrid, but let's not say they don't have anyone fitting the bill on the team currently (Covey, Beck, Ynoa, Holmberg). A third of the staff is guys who are getting a shot to see what they can do.
Kittle:

I'm referring more to starting pitchers myself.
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  #17  
Old 05-16-2017, 11:50 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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A little off topic but I wanted to post about it, I think that literally every single decision, every move the Sox make or think about making this year should have one priority in mind...how can we get the most out of the players we have in trade.

The goal is to get as much potential future talent as possible for anyone and everyone who is on the market.

To that end that means using the big league players in the best possible situations to maximize their potential trade value. Then when the time comes you unload as many of them as possible.

If the best you can do for some of these guys is just a single A prospect, so be it. With a lot of the guys on the big league roster you know their potential is limited, some are about to become free agents (and won't be returning anyway...why would they?) so you take what you can get.

If as some others have said, the Sox scouting department has improved they may be able to glean some possible future contributors from scouting other teams minor league systems and that includes the lower levels.

Just wanted to get that out there.
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  #18  
Old 05-16-2017, 12:27 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
Covey can at least be an acceptable option as a long man out of the bullpen- and i don't mind investing a few more starts with him- a reasonable investment for a rebuilding team.

Todd Frazier's performance for $8M a year- .218 average since joining the White Sox- is alot more irritating to me than any of our pitchers. The biggest issue with this team is scoring runs- and he's a perpetual, expensive black hole in the line up.
Todd Frazier has been a complete bust. He's in that grouping of terrible veterans we've brought in here as patchwork. Line him up next to LaRoche, Keppinger, Dunn, Rios, etc.

He just flat out sucks. Cut him lose and bring Delmonico up for a nice long look.

Anyone who thinks Frazier will resurrect himself to make himself marketable is sadly mistaken.
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  #19  
Old 05-16-2017, 12:38 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
Todd Frazier has been a complete bust. He's in that grouping of terrible veterans we've brought in here as patchwork. Line him up next to LaRoche, Keppinger, Dunn, Rios, etc.

He just flat out sucks. Cut him lose and bring Delmonico up for a nice long look.

Anyone who thinks Frazier will resurrect himself to make himself marketable is sadly mistaken.
I completely agree- but I wouldn't just release him- if all he does is get hot in the month of July- that could be enough to get a low level prospect from a contender who needs a veteran 3B for the stretch run.
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  #20  
Old 05-16-2017, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
Who does this anymore in sports, business or life in general? Damn few to be sure.
Yeah, I appreciate the comments from Renteria. He's the manager of the ballclub, and he's willing to take the responsibility for the results. I know that seems like an obvious thing, but there have been managers who don't want that heat.

That said, I don't blame him for sticking with Pelfrey. I mean, it's May 16. There's a lot of season to go. How many damn times can you bring in Dan Jennings in the fifth inning to clean up a mess left by a starting pitcher who should really not be here?

As others have noted, Swarzak has been a huge surprise. Well, let's try not to burn out his arm too early in the season, so that he can help the ballclub fill gaps in the middle innings from now until the end of the year. Even if he can't sustain this level -- and he probably won't -- he can be useful to this team if he is allowed to remain somewhat fresh.

At some point, Pelfrey needs to do his job or get the hell outta here. I'm guessing he'll be asked to leave whenever one of Shields or Rodon comes off the DL.
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  #21  
Old 05-16-2017, 01:13 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Pelfrey and Covey are now a combined 0-7 for the season. Folks those guys are really, really bad. ERA's are 5 1/2 and 8 respectively.

Sox blow a three run lead thanks to Pelfrey's meltdown in the 5th inning and lost again in Anaheim.

That's something like 13 of 16 there since 2012.

Anaheim is the latest in a long line of Sox "House of Horrors."

I know some will say, "the Sox are rebuilding...who cares?"

I disagree with that notion.

These guys are getting bombed out early night after night putting a major strain on the bullpen. That bullpen includes some guys who may be trade pieces in a few months. If they are overworked, ineffective the Sox won't even be able to get a Single A type prospect for any of them.

Personally even in a rebuilding year, I'd rather the Sox promote some borderline kids out of the minor league system who may have a future. Give them a shot and see what if anything they can do. And I'm not talking about the top prospects, let them stay in the minors and learn their craft.

The Sox may find a kid or two who actually has a future with the team...we know Covey and Pelfrey have no future. Period.

Just my opinion.

I had hoped when I read that the Sox were bringing up another pitcher that it was going to be a starting prospect the way other rebuilding teams do, the way contending teams do for that matter.

I never believed the Sox should have traded Sale, or at least should have held out for more. I hope they don't trade Quintana and I don't know that you can assume they will. But if they do, the starting pitching, which is the foundation of a contending team, is going to begin looking like 1970 without Tommy John. You can't bring back Jerry Crider because he died in Phoenix nine years ago, but you can bring up pitchers who aren't even that skilled in getting hitters out.

Covey isn't going anywhere. The way the White Sox are treating him, it looks like they are trying to find that inner inability that made him one of the top high school pitchers in the country seven years ago. Or maybe they haven't offered him back to the A's because they know they can't do any better. Like Pelfrey, he is cheap, and maybe that has something to do with it.

Monday's game was a winnable game, and Pelfrey only gave up one hit two times though the lineup. Maybe he was effectively wild, throwing about as many balls and strikes. He only needed to get through the fifth without giving up two two-out home runs. You might as well treat Pelfrey like a three-inning reliever when he starts because he can't get you

It's only going to get worse if the Sox trade any of their capable starting pitching midseason, although with the Royals breaking down with so many pending free agents, it figures to be a buyer's market at the trade deadline.

I've seen too many hot pitching prospects come and go with the A's to feel confident that a starting rotation can be completely disassembled and rebuilt. The Sox needed two starting pitchers last season, and I'm already nostalgic for it.
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  #22  
Old 05-16-2017, 01:31 PM
kobo kobo is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
Todd Frazier has been a complete bust. He's in that grouping of terrible veterans we've brought in here as patchwork. Line him up next to LaRoche, Keppinger, Dunn, Rios, etc.

He just flat out sucks. Cut him lose and bring Delmonico up for a nice long look.

Anyone who thinks Frazier will resurrect himself to make himself marketable is sadly mistaken.
Thanks for the heads up! Can you enlighten us as to what else is going to happen this summer in regards to our Sox and personnel?
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  #23  
Old 05-16-2017, 01:46 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
A little off topic but I wanted to post about it, I think that literally every single decision, every move the Sox make or think about making this year should have one priority in mind...how can we get the most out of the players we have in trade.

The goal is to get as much potential future talent as possible for anyone and everyone who is on the market.

To that end that means using the big league players in the best possible situations to maximize their potential trade value. Then when the time comes you unload as many of them as possible.

If the best you can do for some of these guys is just a single A prospect, so be it. With a lot of the guys on the big league roster you know their potential is limited, some are about to become free agents (and won't be returning anyway...why would they?) so you take what you can get.

If as some others have said, the Sox scouting department has improved they may be able to glean some possible future contributors from scouting other teams minor league systems and that includes the lower levels.

Just wanted to get that out there.
Yes, but...

We cannot take that goal to such an extreme that it outweighs all other considerations.

For instance, I agree that pitchers should have their innings limited to retain their effectiveness and therefore their trade value. But if you tightly limit all the pitchers, you'll run out of pitchers.

Say in the 4th inning Holland starts to lose it. Do you pull him immediately, before any damage is done to his ERA? That means more innings for your relievers, whose innings you are trying to limit to preserve their trade value, too.

Maybe we need one or two worthless veteran pitchers who will just go up and get pounded for 3-4 innings whenever we need them because they never will have any trade value. Oh, wait. That's Pelfrey.

Where's Scott Carroll and Dylan Axelrod?
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  #24  
Old 05-16-2017, 02:06 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo
Where's Scott Carroll and Dylan Axelrod?
Beck and Holmberg are the same thing.
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  #25  
Old 05-16-2017, 02:35 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Beck and Holmberg are the same thing.
Exactly. These pitchers are minor league, below-replacement-level pitchers. They will not increase their trade value regardless of what happens. So, let them eat innings without concern for what will happen to their trade value. If that means they give up 12 runs in the process of recording 12 outs, so be it.
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  #26  
Old 05-16-2017, 03:40 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo
Exactly. These pitchers are minor league, below-replacement-level pitchers. They will not increase their trade value regardless of what happens. So, let them eat innings without concern for what will happen to their trade value. If that means they give up 12 runs in the process of recording 12 outs, so be it.
It also means re-defining what a "close game" or a "high-leverage situation" is. With this offense, I would consider any deficit larger than one run to be an extremely likely loss regardless of what win probability may suggest. I would not hesitate to use low-leverage arms when trailing by two or three runs.

The only other option is to start asking some of these guys to pitch in games where they are protecting a lead. Saturday is a perfect example. Covey only threw 90 pitches. Let him try to pitch out of the jam. Worry more about the long-term improvement of the franchise and less about winning an individual game just because it happened to be played in front of a big crowd on a promotion day.
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  #27  
Old 05-16-2017, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shes
On the plus side, Swarzak continues to be the greatest pitcher in the history of the world. It really is pleasantly shocking how both he and Kahnle have all of a sudden starting putting the ball pretty much exactly where they want to after years of command issues.
If Robertson and Jones both get traded, Kahnle should be given the ninth inning. I can't think of anyone else on the current roster more deserving of the position.
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  #28  
Old 05-16-2017, 04:34 PM
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Since changing his first name, Yolmer "Don't Call me Carlos" Sanchez has been oddly effective. So much so that I'm considering changing my first name to Yolmer. Perhaps Frazier should also consider making the change?
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  #29  
Old 05-16-2017, 05:49 PM
johnny bench johnny bench is offline
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Fun facts about Sox relief pitching to date:

Only 3 other teams relievers have pitched fewer innings,
The're tied for MLB lead in fewest walks,
They lead MLB in lowest WHIP,
They lead MLB in lowest BA against
They are second in OPS against

Clearly Coop has done a nice job in getting people ready to pitch. And so far, Renteria is doing a heckuva job moving the parts around.

I gotta believe that when Hahn's phone rings, it's about the relief pitching.
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