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  #256  
Old 11-08-2019, 06:33 PM
asindc asindc is offline
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I still have no idea where you are getting the “willing to risk having to pay more” part. Pay more to whom?
The offer to Machado was worth more than he eventually signed for, provided he met all the contract incentives. What you seem to be suggesting is that JR was willing to risk having to pay over $300M even though he openly takes pride in being frugal. That is not the behavior of a frugal person. I think criticism of JR for not offering what SD did is fair, though I’m not bent out of shape about it because don’t think Machado will be worth it in the long rum. But it is incongruent to say JR is cheap and then accuse him of risking having to pay that amount of money when he wasn’t sincere about wanting to sign Machado.
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  #257  
Old 11-08-2019, 07:02 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by asindc View Post
The offer to Machado was worth more than he eventually signed for, provided he met all the contract incentives. What you seem to be suggesting is that JR was willing to risk having to pay over $300M even though he openly takes pride in being frugal. That is not the behavior of a frugal person. I think criticism of JR for not offering what SD did is fair, though I’m not bent out of shape about it because don’t think Machado will be worth it in the long rum. But it is incongruent to say JR is cheap and then accuse him of risking having to pay that amount of money when he wasn’t sincere about wanting to sign Machado.
Those contract incentives had no chance of ever being reached.

That offer was well short, by 2 years and $50 million. “Maybe money” doesn’t cut the mustard, and JR knew that. He let “payroll flexibility” in 20-****ing-27 stand in the way.

Par for the course for this skinflint.
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  #258  
Old 11-08-2019, 07:20 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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I can't believe this is still being debated. There's no debate, it was a lowball offer. The only question was whether it was on purpose - in that they had no intention of signing Machado, or if it was unknowing - and were just so blinded by the idea of $250 million that they didn't realize it wasn't close. Neither is good optics for the front office. Not for fans, and certainly not for future free agents when evaluating our organization.

KW had the most telling response, something along the lines of "all he had to do was stay healthy and he'd have made more money". That's just it, right there. A 26 year old superstar is not going to accept "stay healthy and then we'll pay you". The idea for them is to get that guaranteed money for subprime years, because you're not going to get a chance to make it back.
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  #259  
Old 11-08-2019, 07:28 PM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Those contract incentives had no chance of ever being reached.

That offer was well short, by 2 years and $50 million. “Maybe money” doesn’t cut the mustard, and JR knew that. He let “payroll flexibility” in 20-****ing-27 stand in the way.

Par for the course for this skinflint.
My point is that being cheap and risking having to pay even $250 million when you don’t want it are two different concepts that are incompatible with each other.
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  #260  
Old 11-08-2019, 07:30 PM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
I can't believe this is still being debated. There's no debate, it was a lowball offer. The only question was whether it was on purpose - in that they had no intention of signing Machado, or if it was unknowing - and were just so blinded by the idea of $250 million that they didn't realize it wasn't close. Neither is good optics for the front office. Not for fans, and certainly not for future free agents when evaluating our organization.

KW had the most telling response, something along the lines of "all he had to do was stay healthy and he'd have made more money". That's just it, right there. A 26 year old superstar is not going to accept "stay healthy and then we'll pay you". The idea for them is to get that guaranteed money for subprime years, because you're not going to get a chance to make it back.
I’m saying it’s the latter because no one risks getting stuck paying that kind of money when they don’t want to, especially if they are frugal.
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  #261  
Old 11-08-2019, 07:36 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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I don't think, once the Padres got involved, the White Sox figured $250 million would do it. I know that's debatable, but the leaked $180 million offer was probably as high as they wanted to go and didn't expect it to get out there. Once it did, other teams realized they could make a play. At least one did.
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  #262  
Old 11-08-2019, 07:49 PM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
I don't think, once the Padres got involved, the White Sox figured $250 million would do it. I know that's debatable, but the leaked $180 million offer was probably as high as they wanted to go and didn't expect it to get out there. Once it did, other teams realized they could make a play. At least one did.
I agree. But that only means that the Sox were not willing to guarantee more than $250M, not that they weren’t sincere about guaranteeing it in the first place.
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  #263  
Old 11-08-2019, 07:59 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Sure. But the problem isn't that the White Sox aren't willing to spend. It's that their valuations are widely not in line with reality. Which is why when we do spend money, it's on middle tier guys whose markets have collapsed.


The reality is that if the Sox are ever to sign a marque free agent, they're going to have to break records with the deal. Not just their own record. Because guys on top don't want to come here, and they're only going to if it's a markedly larger deal than everyone else is offering. I have no doubt that if both the White Sox and the Padres offered the same deal, the result would have been the same.
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  #264  
Old 11-08-2019, 08:30 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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How about not spending $13 million on Yonder Alonso and Jon Jay and using that money to pay Machado down the road? That leaves you $37 million short. If you can’t bring yourself to spare $3.7 million more per season for a marquee free agent, then stop spouting a bunch of bull**** every year about how “active” and “creative” you plan on being.

Teams like the Rays and Indians Royals and A’s don’t jerk their fans around with phony bluster. Hell, the Indians pretty much just flat-out admitted that retaining Francisco Lindor was not going to be possible and told fans to “enjoy him while he’s here.” The Royals weren’t secretive about the impending departures of World Series heroes Eric Hosmer, Lorenzo Cain, and Mike Moustakas.

It’s bad for ownership to be cheap. It’s bad for ownership to be meddling in baseball operations. It’s bad for ownership to be bull**** artists every winter.

It’s unbearably bad when ownership is all 3.
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  #265  
Old 11-08-2019, 08:40 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Please let some rumors start flying soon...
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  #266  
Old 11-08-2019, 09:15 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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2020 is the year when the baseball's phoenix, better known as the San Diego Padres make their return atop the NL West.
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  #267  
Old 11-08-2019, 10:59 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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2020 is the year when the baseball's phoenix, better known as the San Diego Padres make their return atop the NL West.

The Padres graduated 7 prospects last year, 3 of which were consensus top 25 guys (Tatis, Paddock, Urias). Their system is still the top system in baseball, with 3 top 25 guys (Gore, Trammel, Patino), and 2 more in the top 50 all expected to see time in the big leagues at some point this year. The Padres are about to arrive. And the young guys have the benefit of a middle of the order superstar in his prime for lineup protection.
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  #268  
Old 11-09-2019, 01:38 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by asindc View Post
The offer to Machado was worth more than he eventually signed for, provided he met all the contract incentives. What you seem to be suggesting is that JR was willing to risk having to pay over $300M even though he openly takes pride in being frugal. That is not the behavior of a frugal person. I think criticism of JR for not offering what SD did is fair, though I’m not bent out of shape about it because don’t think Machado will be worth it in the long rum. But it is incongruent to say JR is cheap and then accuse him of risking having to pay that amount of money when he wasn’t sincere about wanting to sign Machado.
Agreed.
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  #269  
Old 11-09-2019, 01:47 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Sure. But the problem isn't that the White Sox aren't willing to spend. It's that their valuations are widely not in line with reality. Which is why when we do spend money, it's on middle tier guys whose markets have collapsed.


The reality is that if the Sox are ever to sign a marque free agent, they're going to have to break records with the deal. Not just their own record. Because guys on top don't want to come here, and they're only going to if it's a markedly larger deal than everyone else is offering. I have no doubt that if both the White Sox and the Padres offered the same deal, the result would have been the same.
This is pure speculation. Players take the highest offer pretty much every time, that's how FA works. Even if its just $1-5mil more.

Pretty sure I heard that Machado would have rather come to the Sox if all things were even with money. He did want to play with Yonder and Jay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
How about not spending $13 million on Yonder Alonso and Jon Jay and using that money to pay Machado down the road? That leaves you $37 million short. If you can’t bring yourself to spare $3.7 million more per season for a marquee free agent, then stop spouting a bunch of bull**** every year about how “active” and “creative” you plan on being.
Because having those guys actually helped the Sox get Manny's attention. Also those guys were acquired before we all found out what the final amount, $300mil, was that he signed for. So that line of thinking doesn't work.

The problem with the whole thing was the FO giving a **** what happens in years 9-10 of the deal when the Sox have never made the playoffs in consecutive years EVER. Who ****ing cares what they do those years if the prior 8 are successful. That said, I think the Sox are better off now not signing him.
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  #270  
Old 11-09-2019, 01:54 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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The Padres graduated 7 prospects last year, 3 of which were consensus top 25 guys (Tatis, Paddock, Urias). Their system is still the top system in baseball, with 3 top 25 guys (Gore, Trammel, Patino), and 2 more in the top 50 all expected to see time in the big leagues at some point this year. The Padres are about to arrive. And the young guys have the benefit of a middle of the order superstar in his prime for lineup protection.
Padres very well might be decent coming up. Though I would much prefer the Sox players, division they play in, and payroll flexibility.

I don't think Machado is a superstar offensively. He's only been elite for half of a season in '18 before getting traded to LAD. Has power and thats about it. Isn't a guy to anchor a WS team around. Really not close to the true elite guys in the batters box like Trout, Bregman, Betts, Yelich, Rendon, Lindor, Bellinger, etc.
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