White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
GO SOX! DSNB!

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #106  
Old 09-15-2019, 12:10 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,294
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
I donít think thereís a realistic path to being a team in the Yankees/Astros echelon in 2020, without significantly mortgaging our prospect depth. Mohoneyís proposal is certainly aggressive and interesting, but requires everything to go right and leaves little margin for error.

A year ago Machado looked like the perfect fit. But now the left side of the infield looks like the most stable part of our team particularly if Anderson can improve his throwing.

I donít see any catching depth beyond Collins, and even heís a definite question mark. That why I want Grandal, who also is a good enough hitter that he can DH and thus be in the lineup almost every day.

Choo would solve the RF hole and provide OBP in the leadoff spot. You can run a lineup of Choo, Anderson, Moncada, Abreu, Grandal, Eloy as the top 6, and then Collins/McCann, Robert and Madrigal can be eased into the 7-9 spots depending on matchups. I think that lineup would score a lot of runs.

Cole and Giolito atop our rotation provides significant protection so that once Kopech is ready, the weakest among Cease, Lopez, and Nova can move to the pen. And even so, due to scheduled off days the fifth starter spot wonít be needed until the April 10-27 stretch.

Maybe Iím drinking too much of my own Kool Aid, but I think that team easily goes .500+, and with a few breaks could win 90 which might be enough to take the division.
I get that Choo had been solid throughout his career, but he will be 38 at some point next season. Isn't that the main complaining point of people, Hahn/KW acquiring older talent?

Going out and getting a Matt Beaty from LAD, who is buried behind a bunch of others at 1b/OF there makes way more sense for me. He is cheaper, way younger (26), and has a bunch of years of control and he could turn out to be a legit long term piece. There's a bit of risk involved, as he has only played about half a season in the majors, and might just be a fluke. Worth the gamble maybe.
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 09-15-2019, 01:16 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 12,081
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
This FO has been one of the most aggressive in extending top talent over the more recent years, they won't have to wait till FA and spend top dollar on Moncada/Robert/etc.

The non Machado signing has made this much more possible.
I think Moncada is out the door after 2023, and I think Robert is out the door after 2026. Those guys will be looking at offers of about $200 million in free agency. They wonít be signing any Eloy-type extensions.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsemaster Fred
This is the major leagues so get it how you live and letís fight tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 09-15-2019, 01:33 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 18,579
Default

Certainly not if the team makes stupid long-term commitments to outside free agents that run beyond their short-term value.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 09-15-2019, 01:36 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,294
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
I think Moncada is out the door after 2023, and I think Robert is out the door after 2026. Those guys will be looking at offers of about $200 million in free agency. They wonít be signing any Eloy-type extensions.
Well Moncada obviously can't because he's been in the league for a few years, so it would be more similar to a Acuna or even Bregman deal.

I get that both have made a lot of money in their teens already, but you have absolutely no clue what they are going to do. Extensions are widespread throughout the league. How do you know they aren't/won't be very comfortable with the Sox and take the $70-120mil extension offer? Happens literally all the time.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 09-15-2019, 02:39 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 12,081
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Well Moncada obviously can't because he's been in the league for a few years, so it would be more similar to a Acuna or even Bregman deal.

I get that both have made a lot of money in their teens already, but you have absolutely no clue what they are going to do. Extensions are widespread throughout the league. How do you know they aren't/won't be very comfortable with the Sox and take the $70-120mil extension offer? Happens literally all the time.
Both players would be making $20+ million or so AAV by the time they reach Arb 3 (Arb 4 in Robertís case). They would be entering free agency at the ages of 28 and 29, respectively. Why would they agree to any extension that would delay free agency past the age of 30 and lose a ton of bargaining power in the process? Plus, there is a labor battle on the horizon, which could make free agency come even earlier for those guys. Why commit to anything beyond year-to-year arbitration?
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 09-15-2019, 03:55 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 18,579
Default

I don't know that making free agency available to players earlier would mean bigger free-agent contracts. If it increased the number of young attractive free agents, the offers for those free agents would be less. Marvin Miller realized when he "compromised" with the owners to give teams six years of control to let them recoup the cost of development, he understood that every limiting the supply of free agents would increase their demand and raise their salaries. With arbitration, the artificially high market for limited free agents has an affect on players not eligible for free agency.

If you reduced the team control from six years to four years, you may well see fewer teams trading veterans for prospects. Moncada, for example, was not at all a good hitter until his third major league season. In his third season, he still plays for a bad team and is likely to play for a bad team in his fourth season because the cost of acquiring the pitching the White Sox need would diminish their chances of keeping Moncada past his free-agent year.

With a combination of free agency after six years and arbitration, baseball players have the best deal in professional sports. There are enough teams that there are plenty of players putting in time for the pension that don't really belong in the majors, especially when you look at how thin the pitching is. Trying to improve on that, even if it involves some give and take, could have unintended consequences.

The White Sox rebuild is based on the parameters and nuances of the current labor agreement. Changes in the agreement could hurt the White Sox more than most other teams. The White Sox can't plan for agreements that haven't yet been negotiated, but changing the agreement could doom the rebuild.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 09-15-2019, 04:57 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 12,081
Default

Itís all about the age at which a player hits free agency. The only reason Machado and Harper got their huge deals was their age. Teams are usually OK going to age-34 with a marquee player, and with each year past age-34, the comfort level drops precipitously. With lesser talents, even that age-34 season gives front offices cold sweats.

Plus, a drop below below 7 years of team control likely would come at the expense of a league-minimum salary season, not an arbitration season. That in and of itself is substantial.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 09-15-2019, 05:45 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 18,579
Default

It's not just about the age. It's about the scarcity of free agents at that age. If you create younger free agents by giving them the ability to become free agents sooner, you reduce the scarcity. If Machado had been in the same market with a dozen free agents of his age all with solid reputations, he would have signed for significantly less than the Padres gave him.
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 09-15-2019, 07:26 PM
DumpJerry's Avatar
DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
Tom Feargal Hagen
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The hearts and minds of Sox fans on 10-26-05
Posts: 28,268
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornball View Post
You realize MLB is doing away with the 40 man roster next year.....aren't you?
No, it's the 25 man roster that is history after this year. It will now be a 26 man roster.
__________________


2020....2020.....2020....2020....2020.....
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 09-15-2019, 07:27 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,294
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Both players would be making $20+ million or so AAV by the time they reach Arb 3 (Arb 4 in Robertís case). They would be entering free agency at the ages of 28 and 29, respectively. Why would they agree to any extension that would delay free agency past the age of 30 and lose a ton of bargaining power in the process? Plus, there is a labor battle on the horizon, which could make free agency come even earlier for those guys. Why commit to anything beyond year-to-year arbitration?
These deals could come well before Arb 3/4, might even come before Arb as a whole. So they might not even be making big money when the Sox offer an extension. Wouldn't surprise me is Hahn starts extension talks with Moncada this offseason. Why wouldn't Moncada sign an extension that adds an additional 2 years of control so he can be a FA at age 30 and get a big payday locked in before then? As far as Robert, so much time before now and him being a FA to have any clue that he won't stick around. Honestly, Robert's FA shouldn't effect anything from the 4-5 year WS window as he is controlled for the next 6-7 years.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 09-16-2019, 07:08 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 12,081
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
It's not just about the age. It's about the scarcity of free agents at that age. If you create younger free agents by giving them the ability to become free agents sooner, you reduce the scarcity. If Machado had been in the same market with a dozen free agents of his age all with solid reputations, he would have signed for significantly less than the Padres gave him.
Scarcity would not change. That glut of 29-year-old free agents would become a glut of 27-year-old free agents. The rare 26-year-old free agents would become rare 24-year-old free agents.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 09-16-2019, 07:10 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 12,081
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
These deals could come well before Arb 3/4, might even come before Arb as a whole. So they might not even be making big money when the Sox offer an extension. Wouldn't surprise me is Hahn starts extension talks with Moncada this offseason. Why wouldn't Moncada sign an extension that adds an additional 2 years of control so he can be a FA at age 30 and get a big payday locked in before then? As far as Robert, so much time before now and him being a FA to have any clue that he won't stick around. Honestly, Robert's FA shouldn't effect anything from the 4-5 year WS window as he is controlled for the next 6-7 years.
1) Those free agent years they would be surrendering could be $25+ or even $30+ million propositions.

2) A playerís bargaining leverage drops off pretty significantly after age-30.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:50 PM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 7,197
Default

I have yet to hear the Sox mentioned in connection with Anthony Rendon. Why not?

"But where would he play?"

Well, Hawk, obviously you'd move Moncada to second and banish Yolmer to the land of wind and ghosts. That does block Madrigal, and if Madrigal forces the issue you could have him and Yoan switch off as DH.
__________________
"Hope...may be indulged in by those who have abundant resources...but its nature is to be extravagant, and those who go so far as to stake their all upon the venture see it in its true colors only when they are ruined."
-- Thucydides
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 09-16-2019, 07:12 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Western Suburbs
Posts: 5,046
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
I have yet to hear the Sox mentioned in connection with Anthony Rendon. Why not?

"But where would he play?"

Well, Hawk, obviously you'd move Moncada to second and banish Yolmer to the land of wind and ghosts. That does block Madrigal, and if Madrigal forces the issue you could have him and Yoan switch off as DH.
Move Moncada now? No way...
__________________
ďThere were a few hard rules, but everybody was unique, and he understood that. Georgeís great strength was he didnít overcoach. Thereís no place for panic on the mound.Ē - Jim Palmer on George Bamberger ďArms and the man,Ē Sports Illustrated, April 19, 2004
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 09-16-2019, 07:28 PM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is offline
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 58,495
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Move Moncada now? No way...
That's my first thought. I also just don't see the Sox investing in a sure thing infielder unless they can land a young stud MLB 2B by trading madrigal and spare low level players, but that seems pretty remote of a chance. I think they want to see if they have the infield locked up for a long time relatively cheap.
__________________

Riding shotgun on the Sox bandwagon since before there was an Internet...
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:20 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.