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  #91  
Old 12-05-2018, 12:46 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
It's overdone if it was in a vacuum. But it's one in a long,long series of poor moves by a GM who, unbelievably, is venerated.

I don't think Hahn is "venerated." I think may fans are understandably excited about the many talented prospects we have acquired, along with the payroll flexibility to add to whatever homegrown core we might assemble.



Anderson is a draft success. Rodon is a draft success. Fulmer is probably a bust, but has one more chance this year. It's too soon to render judgement on Collins, Burdi, Burger, and Madrigal.


As far as free agent signings, Abreu is a success. Melky did what was expected. LaRoche sucked but he did us a favor by retiring. The Navarro/Avila combination to replace Flowers was a disaster. Other free agent signings, like Jimmy Rollins, Austin Jackson and Jeff Keppinger, were never expected to be major contributors.



Trading away Semien and Escobar for Samardzija and Liriano, respectively, didn't work well. The Tatis for Shields deal looks like a pending disaster assuming Tatis develops along his present trajectory. The Santiago for Eaton deal was a win. The Reed for Davidson deal was probably a net loss. The Frazier acquisition didn't cost us much, but he performed well. Based on WAR, we got more out of Avi Garcia than Jake Peavy produced for the balance of his career, and we have gotten more from Leury Garcia than Alex Rios produced for the end of his career. It's too soon to render judgement on any of the tear-down trades.


It's a mixed and incomplete record. If the current rebuild fails - if the Sox can't crack .500 in 2020 and aren't regularly competing for and winning division titles between 2021 and 2025 (and hopefully beyond) - then, yes, it's time to clean house.



Until then, anyone who is calling Hahn a genius, and anyone who is calling for his head, is being completely premature.
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  #92  
Old 12-05-2018, 12:49 PM
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Fine - don't hold Hahn accountable for Fulmer.
Is he accountable for Rodon? For Burdi? For Burger?

Where would this farm system be ranked if based just on drafting and international signings?
Rodon the guy who has looked like an absolute stud for most of the time he's been healthy with the Sox?

Burdi who has yet to pitch for the big league club due to injury but who should be up sometime this year?

Burger who tore his Achilles tendon twice, the second time because he apparently got cocky and took off his walking boot too soon?

How would you have us hold him accountable for these players? Injuries happen is Hahn supposed to be claravoyent?

You want us to judge him on only one part of his job because you believe it fits your narrative, but the simple fact is a GM's job is much more complicated than that. Maybe we should give him praise for putting the Sox in such a great place in terms of salary cap space, but that has nothing to do with player development at all, so you'd prefer we ignore that also.
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  #93  
Old 12-05-2018, 12:53 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Fine - don't hold Hahn accountable for Fulmer.
Is he accountable for Rodon? For Burdi? For Burger?

Where would this farm system be ranked if based just on drafting and international signings?

Rodon is a success. Injuries aren't Hahn's fault.


It's much too early to render judgement on Burdi and Burger, not only because they haven't yet matriculated to the majors, but also because both have had injuries that require significant rehab time.


I have to imagine that if you take all the acquired talent out of the minors, then it would be a "bottom half" organization, with Robert and Madrigal as our top prospects. But then, we'd have a lot more talent on the major league squad. I don't believe that Hahn was in charge of drafting or even scouting before he was named GM in October 2012, so I won't hold him responsible for the state of the system he inherited.
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  #94  
Old 12-05-2018, 01:10 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Fine - don't hold Hahn accountable for Fulmer.
Is he accountable for Rodon? For Burdi? For Burger?

I can't see how GMs are accountable for injuries unless there is a medical report saying, "this guy is injured, don't draft or sign him".


Burdi and Burger? Why mention them? Both are very young and expected to be back, or already back in the case of Burdi.
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  #95  
Old 12-05-2018, 01:15 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Rodon is a success. Injuries aren't Hahn's fault.

He's not a success yet. If he pitches two complete seasons at the same level he did last year, he'll probably be around "break even" for players drafted 3rd.
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  #96  
Old 12-05-2018, 02:29 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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I can't see how GMs are accountable for injuries unless there is a medical report saying, "this guy is injured, don't draft or sign him".


Burdi and Burger? Why mention them? Both are very young and expected to be back, or already back in the case of Burdi.
Seriously. I can't believe some fans are writing off Burdi already when his only failure so far has been to have TJS.

Same with Burger....it's one thing to disagree with his selection, but it's another to already call him a bust and start the finger pointing at Sox management.

Let's see how these guys do in 2019 first.
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  #97  
Old 12-05-2018, 04:16 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post

How would you have us hold him accountable for these players? Injuries happen is Hahn supposed to be claravoyent?

You want us to judge him on only one part of his job because you believe it fits your narrative, but the simple fact is a GM's job is much more complicated than that. Maybe we should give him praise for putting the Sox in such a great place in terms of salary cap space, but that has nothing to do with player development at all, so you'd prefer we ignore that also.
Exactly my point....everything with him is just bad luck. From Burdi to Fulmer to Shields to Tatis...nothing but bad luck.
He had Sale, Q and Eaton to trade, not to mention 6 straight top 11 picks...who couldn't amass prospects with that capital? And note, out of all of the other guys he had to trade, only Rutherford is of any significance at all.
That said, let's see how this core develops. No more trades for veterans or contrivances. Let's see who develops and then they can make some decisions and fill some gaps. Because, right now, the core = 0; some have higher probabilities than others of becoming the core, but none has materialized yet. And he just traded his most advanced young hitter.

Last edited by Tragg; 12-05-2018 at 04:21 PM.
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  #98  
Old 12-05-2018, 04:35 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Exactly my point....everything with him is just bad luck. From Burdi to Fulmer to Shields to Tatis...nothing but bad luck.
He had Sale, Q and Eaton to trade, not to mention 6 straight top 11 picks...who couldn't amass prospects with that capital? And note, out of all of the other guys he had to trade, only Rutherford is of any significance at all.
That said, let's see how this core develops. No more trades for veterans or contrivances. Let's see who develops and then they can make some decisions and fill some gaps. Because, right now, the core = 0; some have higher probabilities than others of becoming the core, but none has materialized yet. And he just traded his most advanced young hitter.
The entirety of this post is either factually incorrect, revisionist history, or is apropos of nothing.

I donít mean to be snotty, but itís rather tiring seeing the same opinionsówhich youíre completely entitled toóthrown out as evidence of some kind of broad incompetence.

Itís fair to be disappointed for any number of reasons. Itís not fair to attribute that feeling to unclear sentiments that just donít have a factual base in reality.
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  #99  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:09 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Who did we trade?
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  #100  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:19 PM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
The entirety of this post is either factually incorrect, revisionist history, or is apropos of nothing.

I donít mean to be snotty, but itís rather tiring seeing the same opinionsówhich youíre completely entitled toóthrown out as evidence of some kind of broad incompetence.

Itís fair to be disappointed for any number of reasons. Itís not fair to attribute that feeling to unclear sentiments that just donít have a factual base in reality.
If an opinion is divorced from fact, is it a valid opinion?
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  #101  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:46 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Who did we trade?
My assumption was that it was referring to Narvaez.
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Originally Posted by asindc View Post
If an opinion is divorced from fact, is it a valid opinion?
Well in that case itís not so much the opinion thatís valid as much as the right to express it, of course. Thereís just only so many times you can go through it and do a point by point rebuttal to the same arguments before it becomes exhausting and besides the point.
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  #102  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:32 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Exactly my point....everything with him is just bad luck. From Burdi to Fulmer to Shields to Tatis...nothing but bad luck.
He had Sale, Q and Eaton to trade, not to mention 6 straight top 11 picks...who couldn't amass prospects with that capital? And note, out of all of the other guys he had to trade, only Rutherford is of any significance at all.
That said, let's see how this core develops. No more trades for veterans or contrivances. Let's see who develops and then they can make some decisions and fill some gaps. Because, right now, the core = 0; some have higher probabilities than others of becoming the core, but none has materialized yet. And he just traded his most advanced young hitter.
I never said that and many have come out and stated their issues with the Shields trade.

The opposite of nothing is not all, it's some. SOME of these issues are bad luck. SOME of them are mistakes. SOME of them are successful trades that look to add significant pieces to the team for the future success we all hope it enjoys.

It's shades of gray, not white and black.
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  #103  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:46 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
I never said that and many have come out and stated their issues with the Shields trade.

The opposite of nothing is not all, it's some. SOME of these issues are bad luck. SOME of them are mistakes. SOME of them are successful trades that look to add significant pieces to the team for the future success we all hope it enjoys.

It's shades of gray, not white and black.
Well said. Yes, there ultimately is a net negative or positive, but the fact is we wonít know that until Hahnís career in the organization is all said and done. There has to be nuance to itówhat theyíre trying to do now is a lot different that what they were trying to do in the winter of 2014. You can criticize them fairly for not making the right moves then, but I donít think itís reasonable yet to judge the approach theyíre taking now just because the approach they took a few years ago didnít work out.

I actually donít necessarily see that as a bad thing, either. Iím more inclined to have faith in someone who can admit when somethingís not working and tries a different way than someone who just keeps digging themselves into the same hole.
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  #104  
Old 12-05-2018, 10:44 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Exactly my point....everything with him is just bad luck. From Burdi to Fulmer to Shields to Tatis...nothing but bad luck.
I don't recall anyone typing "nothing but bad luck" with regards to Fulmer or Tatis. The Burdi injury isn't bad luck, it's your usual TJS for a flame throwing pitcher. Why Burdi's name is even being brought up at all? He's recognized as one of the top relief prospects in baseball and threw effectively in the AFL. Pretty good for being drafted at the end of the first round, where less than half the players picked even make the major leagues. It's also silly to think that the White Sox should have known that a moderately sought after 17 year old would blossom into a top 10 prospect.

Quote:
He had Sale, Q and Eaton to trade, not to mention 6 straight top 11 picks...who couldn't amass prospects with that capital?
But yet Sox fans leading up to the Eaton and Q trades didn't think those two players were worth much...

Quote:
And note, out of all of the other guys he had to trade, only Rutherford is of any significance at all.
Because those "other guys" weren't worth much on the open market and rightfully so. Robertson was the only player with any sort of track record, the rest were one year wonders that the Sox sold high on.

Quote:
And he just traded his most advanced young hitter.
Who isn't very "advanced", has zero pop in his bat and plays pretty sub par defense.

You keep repeating these talking points over and over and over again. Saying them repeatedly is not going to make them real....
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  #105  
Old 12-06-2018, 07:21 AM
blurry blurry is offline
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He's not a success yet. If he pitches two complete seasons at the same level he did last year, he'll probably be around "break even" for players drafted 3rd.
I sure hope he's better than he was last year. I get that he's been injured, but did you see his peripherals?

ERA 4.18
FIP 4.95
xFIP 5.40

That's bad. Add in the fact his velocity was down which directly correlated to a higher BB% and lower K%, and you have some cause for concern. I really hope Rodon can recover from whatever's ailing him as he's shown flashes of true #1 capabilities. They were banking on it when they traded Sale away.
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