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  #16  
Old 04-20-2018, 09:55 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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More evidence that the MLB draft system was broken up until 2013 and the White Sox made it hard on themselves by not reacting to the way teams and agents were cheating the system.
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  #17  
Old 04-20-2018, 10:24 AM
eriqjaffe eriqjaffe is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
Gio Gonzalez was a great pick, but unfortunately KW traded him away to Oakland for some magic beans.
He was also the PTBNL in the Rowand/Thome swap.
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  #18  
Old 04-20-2018, 11:22 AM
PaleHoser PaleHoser is offline
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Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
Another Sox first round pick bites the dust. Since we picked Aaron Rowand in 1998, here's what the Sox brain trust picked through 2012 (when they were picked overall in parenthesis):
'99 - Jason Stumm (15)/Matt Ginter (22)
'00 - Joe Borchard (12)
'01 - Kris Honel (16)
'02 - Royce Ring (18)
'03 - Brian Anderson (15)
'04 - Josh Fields (18)/Tyler Lumsden (34)/Gio Gonzalez (38)
'05 - Lance Broadway (15)
'06 - Kyle McCulloch (29)
'07 - Aaron Poreda (25)
'08 - Gordon Beckham (8)
'09 - Jared Mitchell (23)
'10 - Chris Sale (13)
'11 - Keenyn Walker (47)
'12 - Courtney Hawkins (13)/Keon Barnum (48)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nd_draft_picks

The Chris Sale pick was obviously a grand slam. Gio Gonzalez was a great pick, but unfortunately KW traded him away to Oakland for some magic beans. Other than that, a long list of garbage. And let's not pretend that it's because the Sox always picked very late in the first round during this period. Many of these duds ranged from overall pick 8 to 18.

The jury is still out on the first round picks from 2013 and on. The one with the best MLB track record so far is Carlos Rodon (3rd overall pick in '14), but we'll see if he can bounce back from shoulder surgery and stay healthy. Hopefully Tim Anderson (#17 overall in 2013) will turn out to be a dependable everyday SS. The #8 overall pick from 2015 isn't exactly doing that great right now.
And yet the mastermind behind these choices is still drawing a check.
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  #19  
Old 04-20-2018, 11:48 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by PaleHoser View Post
And yet the mastermind behind these choices is still drawing a check.
While KW did have a hand in these picks, I wouldn't place the blame at his feet. Jerry's insistence on paying draft picks only at the "suggested" price is the main culprit. While the Red Sox, Yankees, Tigers, etc. were cheating the system during those years the White Sox did nothing.
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  #20  
Old 04-20-2018, 11:56 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
While KW did have a hand in these picks, I wouldn't place the blame at his feet. Jerry's insistence on paying draft picks only at the "suggested" price is the main culprit. While the Red Sox, Yankees, Tigers, etc. were cheating the system during those years the White Sox did nothing.
Agree. Lots of blame to be shared by a number of folks. Mark Gonzales when he was still the beat writer for the Sox had a story that showed that from (if I remember right) 2007-2011 the Sox spent the least amount of money in all of MLB on their draft choices.

Back when JR was speaking with the media he often said how he wasn't a fan of paying for possibilities but wanted to pay for actual performance.

And the fact that the Sox had a less than cordial relationship with some of the biggest agents in the game (one in particular) didn't help matters as they often represented many of the best players in the draft.
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  #21  
Old 04-20-2018, 01:07 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Agree. Lots of blame to be shared by a number of folks. Mark Gonzales when he was still the beat writer for the Sox had a story that showed that from (if I remember right) 2007-2011 the Sox spent the least amount of money in all of MLB on their draft choices.

Back when JR was speaking with the media he often said how he wasn't a fan of paying for possibilities but wanted to pay for actual performance.

And the fact that the Sox had a less than cordial relationship with some of the biggest agents in the game (one in particular) didn't help matters as they often represented many of the best players in the draft.
As if that weren't bad enough, at the same time their domestic amateur drafting ran into a ditch, the Sox scouting in Latin America was crippled by the David Wilder scandal. They've had success with landing Cuban talent (Alexei, Abreu, Robert), but otherwise they haven't had much success in the way of talent from the rest of Latin America for years.
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  #22  
Old 04-20-2018, 01:55 PM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
As if that weren't bad enough, at the same time their domestic amateur drafting ran into a ditch, the Sox scouting in Latin America was crippled by the David Wilder scandal. They've had success with landing Cuban talent (Alexei, Abreu, Robert), but otherwise they haven't had much success in the way of talent from the rest of Latin America for years.
I'd add Micker Adolfo to the list but your point stands.

MLB is perhaps the most difficult sport to project future production. Looking at the first round only, other than Votto, Seager and obviously Trout, the players drafted after the Sox aren't exactly transcendent talents.

99 - No one of note
'00 - Chase Utley
'01 - No one of note
'02 - Votto, Francoeur, Span,
'03 - Carlos Quentin, Chad Billingsley
'04 - No one of note
'05 - Ellsbury, Rasmus, Buchholz,
'06 - No one of note
'07 - Porcello, Revere, Frazier,
'08 - Smoak
'09 - Trout (ugh)
'10 - No one better than Sale
'11 - No one of note
'12 - Giolito, Seager, Wacha,

A case can definitely be made for playing for a top draft pick. From those same drafts, here are noteworthy picks inside of the top 5:

1999 - Josh Beckett and Josh Hamilton
2000 - Adrian Gonzalez
2001 - Joe Mauer, Mark Texiera, Mark Prior
2002 - No one. Greinke was 6th
2003 - No one.
2004 - Verlander
2005 - Upton, A Gordon, Zimmerman, Braun
2006 - Longoria
2007 - D Price, Moustakas
2008 - Posey, Hosmer, T Beckham
2009 - Strasberg
2010 - Harper, Machado, Pomeranz
2011 - Cole
2012 - Correa, Buxton

Even inside the top 5 is no guarantee of MLB success.

As bad as of a GM as I think KW was, if you were to analyze the picks of other GMs over the same time period, they'd probably look inconsistent at best.
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  #23  
Old 04-20-2018, 03:44 PM
JohnTucker0814 JohnTucker0814 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
I'd add Micker Adolfo to the list but your point stands.

MLB is perhaps the most difficult sport to project future production. Looking at the first round only, other than Votto, Seager and obviously Trout, the players drafted after the Sox aren't exactly transcendent talents.

99 - No one of note
'00 - Chase Utley
'01 - No one of note
'02 - Votto, Francoeur, Span,
'03 - Carlos Quentin, Chad Billingsley
'04 - No one of note
'05 - Ellsbury, Rasmus, Buchholz,
'06 - No one of note
'07 - Porcello, Revere, Frazier,
'08 - Smoak
'09 - Trout (ugh)
'10 - No one better than Sale
'11 - No one of note
'12 - Giolito, Seager, Wacha,

A case can definitely be made for playing for a top draft pick. From those same drafts, here are noteworthy picks inside of the top 5:

1999 - Josh Beckett and Josh Hamilton
2000 - Adrian Gonzalez
2001 - Joe Mauer, Mark Texiera, Mark Prior
2002 - No one. Greinke was 6th
2003 - No one.
2004 - Verlander
2005 - Upton, A Gordon, Zimmerman, Braun
2006 - Longoria
2007 - D Price, Moustakas
2008 - Posey, Hosmer, T Beckham
2009 - Strasberg
2010 - Harper, Machado, Pomeranz
2011 - Cole
2012 - Correa, Buxton

Even inside the top 5 is no guarantee of MLB success.

As bad as of a GM as I think KW was, if you were to analyze the picks of other GMs over the same time period, they'd probably look inconsistent at best.
Also note where the White Sox were drafting those years. I am as critical of their drafting as most but they were picking in the middle of the first round and a lot of times outside of 20. The top 5 is a crap shoot, the further you get down the list, the harder it is to hit on talent. Problem is most teams hit on 2-3 per decade... the Sox hit on ZERO!
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  #24  
Old 05-01-2018, 02:16 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Hawkins is now playing for the Sugar Land Skeeters, an independent league team:
https://www.sugarlandskeeters.com/th...urtney-hawkins
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  #25  
Old 05-01-2018, 10:38 PM
soxfanreggie soxfanreggie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnTucker0814 View Post
Also note where the White Sox were drafting those years. I am as critical of their drafting as most but they were picking in the middle of the first round and a lot of times outside of 20. The top 5 is a crap shoot, the further you get down the list, the harder it is to hit on talent. Problem is most teams hit on 2-3 per decade... the Sox hit on ZERO!
I have no problem admitting the Sox really butchered a lot of draft picks and FA signings (especially high-strikeout sluggers) in this timeframe.

With drafting kids out of HS or signing them when they’re under 18, there is more risk. I have no problem with any sport drafting players out of HS, but there is risk. Then again, there is also reward when you pick someone who turns out to be even better a few years later.

Some players just don’t continue with their physical and mental growth. Some suffer injuries that end their careers.
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  #26  
Old 05-02-2018, 07:57 AM
blurry blurry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
Hawkins is now playing for the Sugar Land Skeeters, an independent league team:
https://www.sugarlandskeeters.com/th...urtney-hawkins
Likely the last we'll hear from him. He has a ton of physical talent but couldn't play baseball. I hope he figures it out though.
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