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  #76  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:12 PM
I_Liked_Manuel I_Liked_Manuel is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
The flip side of that is if McCann's OPS drops to .720 he's still a valuable piece because of his catching skills, knowledge and ability to work with the pitchers and he's ours for another year right when the Sox have a whole lot of young pitchers coming on board.
This is where his value truly lies imo, which is why they should keep him at least 1 more year
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  #77  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:26 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
The flip side of that is if McCann's OPS drops to .720 he's still a valuable piece because of his catching skills, knowledge and ability to work with the pitchers and he's ours for another year right when the Sox have a whole lot of young pitchers coming on board.

Wasn't OPS trashed on another thread? As a 'lazy' statistic no less?
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  #78  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:54 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Wasn't OPS trashed on another thread? As a 'lazy' statistic no less?
Yeah, and meanwhile, Halley’s Comet plays like sacrifice flies and 3B; <2 out are being used to knock Eloy for some reason.

OPS is lazy only if we make it lazy by ignoring all the other numbers that make up a player’s profile.
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  #79  
Old 07-08-2019, 06:12 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
That comment was made in response to the suggestion that McCann could bring back 3 top 100 prospects. There's no way that's going to happen. Hell, Chris Sale didn't bring back 3 top 100 prospects. (Yes I know the suggestion was for 3 back-end top 100 prospects, but it's still not going to happen).
My bad. I thought you meant “that much” in a more general sense, like the Marlins didn’t get enough in return.

Yeah, the idea of James McCann’s remaining years of control netting three prospects on top-100 lists is crazy.

To make the point, let’s reverse roles. Let’s say we exchange places with Minnesota, with a solid chance of winning the division, and we’re buying McCann instead of selling him. Would you give up a package of, say, Blake Rutherford + Zack Collins + Alec Hansen? And those guys are not even Top-100 anymore.
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  #80  
Old 07-08-2019, 06:20 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Looking at the reactions here to guys on the block like Colome, Abreu, and McCann, I wonder what the reactions would be if our players were the age, level, and contract friendliness of Kirby Yates, Matthew Boyd, and other names that are on the trade market from rebuilding teams? A group of posters on WSI would flip their ****ing lids that someone like Yates was in trade discussions.
We traded better players than those guys and with more time left on their deal during the rebuild.

What scares me is that we may trade FOR those type of players.
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  #81  
Old 07-08-2019, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Yeah, and meanwhile, Halley’s Comet plays like sacrifice flies and 3B; <2 out are being used to knock Eloy for some reason.

OPS is lazy only if we make it lazy by ignoring all the other numbers that make up a player’s profile.
That's my point. OPS doesn't tell us anything specific about a hitter, it's a meta stat that is useful for comparing players but doesn't tell you whether they should leadoff or bat cleanup or hit in the 9 hole behind the pitcher (what's up with that, Cubs?).

By itself it can be used in lazy ways. It's useful for general comparisons across players, teams and even eras, but again, isn't specific enough to tell anyone much else about the player in question other than he's productive by MLB standards.

I mean that should be obvious from the very way it's generated - adding OBP to SLG doesn't yield any kind of serious specific statistical information. As a general rule that's true of adding any two stats together anywhere in the world. Stats don't work that way...
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  #82  
Old 07-08-2019, 07:56 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Why are you so sure he is capable of doing that when he never has before?

I love the guy, but the only reason I keep him is for his mentoring pitchers and working with Giolito. I just don't think the bat is going to stay this good. Its so far beyond anything he has ever done, like, well beyond.

Isn't the whole idea of a rebuild just this situation - buy at the rock bottom and when available sell at sky high?
His approach at the plate, controlled swing, contact skills, understanding what the pitcher is trying to do to him, etc shows an advanced hitter that should continue to churn out quality at bats. When watching the last 3 months of at bats, he looks like a guy that has "figured it out" at the plate. He has the confidence and knowledge that he can be a good hitter in the majors, which matters enormously in such mental game.

And again, who is going to catch next year and the following years? The Sox don't have a clear answer outside of him.
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  #83  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:01 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
You don’t think the Marlins did well in the Realmuto trade?
I was referring to the 3 top 100 prospects that was suggested for trading McCann in comparison for what Realmuto was traded for. I think the Marlins did fine in that deal getting Sixto Sanchez and Alfaro.
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  #84  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:21 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
That's my point. OPS doesn't tell us anything specific about a hitter, it's a meta stat that is useful for comparing players but doesn't tell you whether they should leadoff or bat cleanup or hit in the 9 hole behind the pitcher (what's up with that, Cubs?).

By itself it can be used in lazy ways. It's useful for general comparisons across players, teams and even eras, but again, isn't specific enough to tell anyone much else about the player in question other than he's productive by MLB standards.

I mean that should be obvious from the very way it's generated - adding OBP to SLG doesn't yield any kind of serious specific statistical information. As a general rule that's true of adding any two stats together anywhere in the world. Stats don't work that way...

OPS is pretty useful in determining players that don't belong or players that are extraordinary. Players with OPS numbers lower than .700 - even with one stat or the other being high, tend to really suck and drag down a roster despite possibly producing well in one of the aforementioned categories. Players with an OPS over .1000 tend to be demonstrably better than the rest of the league. Sometimes - especially with fans - there tends to be an elevation of talent of guys that slug like crazy or get on base like crazy, without regard to how valuable the player actually is. OPS exposes those players in a better context in relation to the rest of the league.
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  #85  
Old 07-08-2019, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
OPS is pretty useful in determining players that don't belong or players that are extraordinary. Players with OPS numbers lower than .700 - even with one stat or the other being high, tend to really suck and drag down a roster despite possibly producing well in one of the aforementioned categories. Players with an OPS over .1000 tend to be demonstrably better than the rest of the league. Sometimes - especially with fans - there tends to be an elevation of talent of guys that slug like crazy or get on base like crazy, without regard to how valuable the player actually is. OPS exposes those players in a better context in relation to the rest of the league.
Yes it's a meta stat, but it won't tell you much more than general productivity.
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  #86  
Old 07-08-2019, 11:31 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Yes it's a meta stat, but it won't tell you much more than general productivity.
It’s nice to have on hand when comparing the production that other teams are getting out of certain spots in the lineup.
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  #87  
Old 07-09-2019, 06:20 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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After Lucroy’s injury, the Angels may be in the market for a catcher. Maybe we can dump a percentage of Castillo’s salary on them after he ends his rehab assignment?
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  #88  
Old 07-09-2019, 08:08 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
After Lucroy’s injury, the Angels may be in the market for a catcher. Maybe we can dump a percentage of Castillo’s salary on them after he ends his rehab assignment?
I don’t think the Angels are playing for this year.
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  #89  
Old 07-14-2019, 09:25 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Everyone with 1.5 years or less of control should be put on the block. The lack of pitching is alarming and they need to start addressing it. RF, 1B - come on, those aren't the priorities. Pitching. The Sox are last in strikeouts, worse than the Orioles, Tigers and Royals.

Last edited by Tragg; 07-14-2019 at 09:31 AM.
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  #90  
Old 07-14-2019, 09:44 PM
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Tell Arizona that we will be glad to take Zack Greinke, but only as a pure salary dump. The prospect return would be two or three absolute nobodies, but we can pay every penny of the Greinke deal and take Yasmany Tomás’s awful money off their hands. Based on the list provided by the Arizona Republic, Greinke can’t block a trade to the White Sox, so the only negotiating leverage he has is declaring free agency after 2019 ends and walking away from 2 years and $70 million.

Arizona would be clearing $16.7 million off the 2019 payroll, $52 million off the 2020 payroll, and $35 million off the 2021 payroll. I can’t think of any prospect package that contending teams would be willing to cobble together that would make it worth passing up a chance to unload the entire $81.5 million owed to Greinke and jettison the $22.2 million of dead money we would absorb on the Tomás deal. Considering that Greinke can’t block a trade to us, and other suitors have shown no interest in paying full retail price for Greinke to this point, Arizona may even say yes to this deal immediately without even bothering to shop around.

Just consider this cost as a reassignment of the Machado money, which IIRC Rick Hahn said “will be spent” at some point. Machado will make $4 million more this year and $32 million in both 2020 and 2021, so let’s call that $68 million. We’re talking about a total overage of $35.7 million, with $12.7 million this year, $20 million next year, and $3 million in 2021. This is easily affordable, provided that the team wasn’t just feeding us more bull**** when they said they would spend money when the time came. Well, Jerry, the time is now.

Think of it as paying $1 million per start for Greinke in 2019 to stabilize a rotation in disarray and to familiarize himself with the AL a little sooner. The remainder is basically a middling veteran salary for a RH bench bat with power. Next year, Greinke’s $35 million is largely offset by Machado’s hypothetical $32 million, and Tomás’s admittedly useless $17 million is completely offset by equally-useless Yonder Alonso ($7 million), nearly-equally-useless Welington Castillo ($6.75 million), and slightly-less-useless Jon Jay ($4 million) dropping off the payroll. 2021 is basically swapping Greinke’s $35 million for Machado’s hypothetical $32 million.

For that cost, you’re getting a top-of-the-rotation starting pitcher you can give the ball to 10 times this year and 30 times in 2020 and 2021. You also get a guy who can DH and pinch hit (plus play occasional occasional 1B, RF, or LF as well, although he’s not a good defender) against LHP to keep your catcher from having to do it.

If the addition provides the fringe benefit of keeping a still-developing team mathematically alive for a 2019 Wild Card later into September, all the better. Plus, this shouldn’t prevent the team from doing anything else it wanted to do regarding free agency. In fact, with an ace like Greinke already here, other free agents may look at this as a place where they can win. Go get an Anthony Rendon or a Madison Bumgarner if you want. Bring back Abreu if you want.
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