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  #76  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:41 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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How Alonso was acquired has no bearing on whether or not he should be retained at this point, and itís silly to rehash those discussions.

I think we can agree that heís been terrible, and that:

Collins could provide the same or better production, with additional positional flexibility since he can catch while Alonso canít;

Collins isnít going to learn to hit major league pitching while facing AAA pitchers;

Collins doesnít have a veteran catcher to mentor him in Charlotte, but would have that opportunity with both McCann and Castillo on the roster.

Calling up Collins now gives Zavala an opportunity to be the full-time starting catcher at Charlotte.
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  #77  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:01 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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I just looked up Alonsoís splits.

Heís actually worse - much worse - against RHP than against LHP.

He hits the ball on the ground way too much.

He hits the ball to the pull side or up the middle, right into the shift.

Heís terrible at home.

He has all the signs of a player whose bat speed has slowed, so heís starting his swing early and hoping to hit it in their air to the pull side, and so he swings over the top of sinking/breaking pitches and hits them into the ground. If the pitcher hangs a slider or throws a changeup, Alonso can do some damage. But living on mistakes is not a long-term career strategy for a DH. And the fact that heís worse against RHP means that a smart manager doesnít have to burn a LH reliever to get him out, which totally defeats the point of Renteria putting him in the middle of the lineup.
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  #78  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:52 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
How Alonso was acquired has no bearing on whether or not he should be retained at this point, and it’s silly to rehash those discussions.
How the Sox repeatedly end up with players like Alonso goes to the core what plagues this franchise.

That said, it's a sunk cost. He should be released. There's no reason to keep him around.
Except, it's my opinion that the plan of the front office was not to resign Abreu, to have Alonso's option kick in and use him to hold 1B for next season.
The reason I believe that, despite some off-hand comments from Hahn about how he wants Abreu back, is that the Sox have never made a serious effort to extend Abreu. And that is the one thing they are good at - extending players they want extended.
Second they are playing Alonso every day. That will kick in his option.
Third,if they wanted to flip Alonso, they would make sure his option didn't kick in AND that he would have plenty of room for max Aug/Sep at bats without it kicking in.
Fourth, Hahn has cut numerous veterans with inflated contracts who didn't perform, including one this year. They want this guy around for some reason.
Plans go awry, and even with the screwy talent evaluation of this franchise, this Alonso can't be part of their plans for next year. But they'll go down fighting, it appears.
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  #79  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:15 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
How the Sox repeatedly end up with players like Alonso goes to the core what plagues this franchise.

That said, it's a sunk cost. He should be released. There's no reason to keep him around.
Except, it's my opinion that the plan of the front office was not to resign Abreu, to have Alonso's option kick in and use him to hold 1B for next season.
The reason I believe that, despite some off-hand comments from Hahn about how he wants Abreu back, is that the Sox have never made a serious effort to extend Abreu. And that is the one thing they are good at - extending players they want extended.
Second they are playing Alonso every day. That will kick in his option.
Third,if they wanted to flip Alonso, they would make sure his option didn't kick in AND that he would have plenty of room for max Aug/Sep at bats without it kicking in.
Fourth, Hahn has cut numerous veterans with inflated contracts who didn't perform, including one this year. They want this guy around for some reason.
Plans go awry, and even with the screwy talent evaluation of this franchise, this Alonso can't be part of their plans for next year. But they'll go down fighting, it appears.
Iím not disagreeing with anything youíve written, but at this point itís all immaterial to what the Sox should do. Given the context:

First, no one other than Robert is actually showing HR power at Birmingham. I think itís partly a function of AA stats generally, and Southern League stats specifically, being depressed this year. Itís also a function of most of those guys all coming to AA at the same time; struggles are to be expected. Itís also a function of Regions Field being a HR-suppressing park compared to other AA ballparks. Iím not terribly worried - yet. But I still think itís OK if even a highly-touted prospect like Rutherford or Sheets spends 1.5 or even two years at Birmingham and doesnít hit a lot of home runs. If they show gap power, then they can go to Charlotte. If the HRs come in Charlotte, great. If the HRs donít come in Charlotte, THEN itís probably OK to declare a corner player (who otherwise was expected to hit for power) a bust. All that to say, Sheets and Burger arenít exactly nipping at Abreuís heels, and Abreu is back to his old self after a slow start, so I think it makes a lot of sense to sign Abreu to an extension.

Second, Collins gives you better production NOW than what Alonso brings.

Third, if Abreu were to get hurt, at most youíd lose the DH for a single game if Collins or McCann had to move off of DH to make sure 1B/C were covered. Indeed, thatís not different than right now, as Alonso would have to move to 1B from DH if Abreu got hurt mid-game. Matt Skole and Nicky Delmonico are just a phone call and a plane ride away.

Fourth, Collins would benefit MORE learning from McCann, and learning to hit major league pitching.

Fifth, itís better for Zavalaís development to get to start at catcher five times a week in Charlotte, rather than just once or twice.

Please, someone give me a counter-argument as to why it would be BAD for Alonso to get DFAíd and Collins to take his place on the roster.
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  #80  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:29 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Two points...

Collins has only shown his ability to hit consistently this year. So it's really not surprising he hasn't been called up yet. I won't be surprised if that day is coming soon. I don't think Zevala's development has much to do with it. He needs to hit better to earn a chance at the majors anyway. He's currently hitting .218 with an OPS of .758.

It's only the end of May. Yonder is currently at 189 PA. Last year he had 574. So there's a long way to go before the team has to worry about his option in 2020 and even if it does vest, it is hardly the end of the world. They could play him every day until the trade deadline and then DFA him and they'd still have plenty of room for error. I'm not advocating for that, but it still seems silly to worry about something that is so far away and unlikely to an extreme unless he turns it around.
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  #81  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:31 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Please, someone give me a counter-argument as to why it would be BAD for Alonso to get DFAíd and Collins to take his place on the roster.
The only arguments I can think of are:

1) service time manipulation

2) the team truly believes that his bat is not major-league-ready
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  #82  
Old 05-25-2019, 10:11 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
The only arguments I can think of are:

1) service time manipulation

2) the team truly believes that his bat is not major-league-ready
I doubt service time manipulation has anything to do with it. Collins is unlikely to ever be worth some massive 9-figure contract. If he is one day, I guess thatís a good problem to have.

I think it has more to do with Alonso than Collins. Itís still less than a third of the way into the season, and theyíre hoping he can turn things around. Plus, the team doesnít have anyone else in the organization with any long-term major league experience at 1B. If Abreu were to miss some time, youíre looking at Delmonico or Skole as the starting 1B. Maybe they think Alonsoís track record gives him a better chance of success in such a scenario.
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  #83  
Old 05-25-2019, 10:16 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post

Please, someone give me a counter-argument as to why it would be BAD for Alonso to get DFA’d and Collins to take his place on the roster.
Because they want Collins to play every day to improve at catcher. He'd be the bench catcher in Chicago.
That said, there are several other players that could replace Alonso. Why I believe he's not being replaced was detailed above.
As for Collins' bat, he's struck out in 41 of 98 At Bats along with his .918 OPS. Does that signal ready? Or inflated stats that likely will decompress once he leaves the AAA land of sketchy pitching.
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  #84  
Old 05-25-2019, 10:25 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
I doubt service time manipulation has anything to do with it. Collins is unlikely to ever be worth some massive 9-figure contract. If he is one day, I guess thatís a good problem to have.

I think it has more to do with Alonso than Collins. Itís still less than a third of the way into the season, and theyíre hoping he can turn things around. Plus, the team doesnít have anyone else in the organization with any long-term major league experience at 1B. If Abreu were to miss some time, youíre looking at Delmonico or Skole as the starting 1B. Maybe they think Alonsoís track record gives him a better chance of success in such a scenario.
Itís not about delaying his free agency by a year. I think he comes up at some point this year anyway. Itís more about getting 3 years of league-minimum salary instead of 2. In the past decade, the Super Two cutoff has fallen somewhere between a low of 122 days and a high of 146 days. Usually mid-to-late June is a safe time for promotion.
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  #85  
Old 05-25-2019, 10:35 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Because they want Collins to play every day to improve at catcher. He'd be the bench catcher in Chicago.
That said, there are several other players that could replace Alonso. Why I believe he's not being replaced was detailed above.
As for Collins' bat, he's struck out in 41 of 98 At Bats along with his .918 OPS. Does that signal ready? Or inflated stats that likely will decompress once he leaves the AAA land of sketchy pitching.
With 3 catchers, McCann can DH a lot more often, and Abreu can DH, with Collins playing 1B. Collins can catch bullpen warmups/starter side sessions to become better acquainted with these pitchers. Collins can start watching tape on major league hitters and pitchers.

Yes, there would be a reduction in actual playing time, but there would be no shortage of things to do up here. I would prefer a nice half-season jump-start, simply because of the all the extra things a catcher needs to learn.
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  #86  
Old 05-25-2019, 10:59 AM
longtimefan longtimefan is offline
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It's obvious the Sox don't want Collins in the majors yet with Zavala being called up to replace Castillo. There has been several good theories posted on why Collins will stay in the minors for now but only Hahn and crew know for sure.
I don't want to keep Alonso but you must first answer who is sharing duties with Abreu before you can dump/move him.
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