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  #331  
Old 01-13-2018, 07:39 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
The biggest flaw with the 2014-2016 teams was Robin Ventura. That was not Hahn's fault. KW recruited Ventura and Reinsdorf loved him.

Hahn actually "won" two consecutive offseasons according to many baseball writers, landing hitters and pitchers who were the best available in weak FA classes. The effort was doomed by Ventura's presence and by many years of KW's "reloading", which depleted the system and the budget. I think Hahn did very well within the parameters of what he was allowed to do.
If that were true, the Sox should have never rebuilded. Fire Ventura and problem solved...the key players were still in their prime.
But the problems with the 15 and 16 teams went well beyond Ventura. IN 2016, Hahn spent over 20 Million on really bad players, e.g.

Last edited by Tragg; 01-13-2018 at 08:59 PM.
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  #332  
Old 01-13-2018, 08:19 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
The trade was excellent based on present perceived value. In the future, that could change.
Yep, agreed.

I've just been a White Sox fan for too long to get excited.
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  #333  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:26 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
If that were true, the Sox should have never rebuilded. Fire Ventura and problem solved...the key players were still in their prime.
But the problems with the 15 and 16 teams went well beyond Ventura. IN 2016, Hahn spent over 20 Million on really bad players, e.g.
Oh, it's true. I argued for years that the Sox needed to fire Ventura and see what a real manager could get out of the team before selling off Sale, Q, and Eaton.

Spending 20 million on really bad players is what you get when you are looking for a quick fix and have a mindless bias in favor of "proven veterans". That fits Kenny's m.o. perfectly, not Hahn's. Hahn called it being "mired in mediocrity" and eventually got Jerry to sign on to the rebuild.
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  #334  
Old 01-14-2018, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
I will merely state that I agree with the bolded part to some extent but feels it needs to be modified.

Any COMPETENT GM could make those trades there are several who would not get as good a return.

If the worst we can say about Hahn is heís a competent GM then itís not much of an issue for me.
Let me be clear: I'm not writing him off as terrible or calling for his firing. I just stop short of heaping praise on him because, well, he's among the people culpable for the no playoff appearances over the past 10 years.
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  #335  
Old 01-14-2018, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew C White View Post
I agree... partially... but I am hard pressed to think of another GM that has actually done what Hahn did. So while it is easy to say, "Anyone could have done that" (and again, I partially agree), it is something else to actually find a comparable series of trades by one GM in one season or even across a couple of them to show that someone else has done that.
Players the caliber of Chris Sale don't get traded too often. Hell, Sale became the first player in the history of the game to be the starting pitcher in the All-Star game for the second consecutive year while representing a different team.

Under normal circumstances, you put four players such as Sale, Quintana, Abreu and Eaton together on a roster, you have a little more success and don't have to "blow it up."

There have been plenty of GMs to undertake rebuilding projects, but not many under this set of circumstances.
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  #336  
Old 01-14-2018, 01:15 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Let me be clear: I'm not writing him off as terrible or calling for his firing. I just stop short of heaping praise on him because, well, he's among the people culpable for the no playoff appearances over the past 10 years.
That's a valid point, but I'll stick with the argument that he's been, at the minimum, competent since they started following his vision 100%.
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  #337  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:21 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post

Spending 20 million on really bad players is what you get when you are looking for a quick fix and have a mindless bias in favor of "proven veterans". That fits Kenny's m.o. perfectly, not Hahn's. Hahn called it being "mired in mediocrity" and eventually got Jerry to sign on to the rebuild.
I hope it's KW...but are we really sure that it is? No one would bother much with declining veterans when rebuilding (Hahn winter of 2013; July 2016-present; even KW had his moments when dumping veterans such as Garcia trade #2). But when not rebuilding in between those time periods, Hahn went the declining veteran route to plug holes, capped off by Shields.
And this latest trade for Soria and Avilan....while it made some sense (they could have also signed a couple of relievers instead, as these guys aren't cheap), declining veterans it was. And this is the start of the build up period where I expect them to start combing assets and trading for pre-arb players.
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  #338  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:33 AM
soxfanreggie soxfanreggie is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Merkin reports Shields is the likely opening day starter. Not a surprise given the cast of characters available, but man, James Shields!
I would rather throw anyone else out there. We just have to pray he can eat at least 150, if not 200 innings, or be ok until Kopech, Rodon, or someone else joins the rotation. It might mean he does it with a 5.00 or higher ERA, but we need serviceable innings eaters and he just hasn’t shown me anything that he can be that.

The last thing I want is him to give up 5-6 runs in 3 innings and already put our pen in a situation to eat at least 6 innings on day 1. Perhaps it’s worthwhile to have a long reliever who can go 4 innings on day 1, if needed.
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  #339  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:47 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by soxfanreggie
I would rather throw anyone else out there. We just have to pray he can eat at least 150, if not 200 innings, or be ok until Kopech, Rodon, or someone else joins the rotation. It might mean he does it with a 5.00 or higher ERA, but we need serviceable innings eaters and he just hasnít shown me anything that he can be that.

The last thing I want is him to give up 5-6 runs in 3 innings and already put our pen in a situation to eat at least 6 innings on day 1. Perhaps itís worthwhile to have a long reliever who can go 4 innings on day 1, if needed.
With a rotation featuring three rookies and a shaky Shields, this team may need to carry two long relievers instead of one.
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  #340  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:40 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Let me be clear: I'm not writing him off as terrible or calling for his firing. I just stop short of heaping praise on him because, well, he's among the people culpable for the no playoff appearances over the past 10 years.
Very valid comment but again we don't know how much sway Hahn had in discussions before he was named G.M. For all we know and there seems to be some circumstantial evidence to back this, Hahn may have been advocating a rebuild or to take a different path for years but was consistently told "no" by Kenny and J.R.

You really can't say for sure one way or the other.
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  #341  
Old 01-14-2018, 02:49 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
I hope it's KW...but are we really sure that it is? No one would bother much with declining veterans when rebuilding (Hahn winter of 2013; July 2016-present; even KW had his moments when dumping veterans such as Garcia trade #2). But when not rebuilding in between those time periods, Hahn went the declining veteran route to plug holes, capped off by Shields.
And this latest trade for Soria and Avilan....while it made some sense (they could have also signed a couple of relievers instead, as these guys aren't cheap), declining veterans it was. And this is the start of the build up period where I expect them to start combing assets and trading for pre-arb players.
After 2005, KW was pretty clear about him wanting to go for it every year. The list of "proven veterans" he reloaded with included Thome, Vazquez, the Alomars, Erstad, MacDougal, O. Cabrera, Swisher, Griffey, Dotel, Linebrink, Rios, Kotsay, Colon, Peavy, Vizquel, Pierre, Andruw Jones, Teahen, Manny Ramirez, Putz, Dunn, Youkilis, Hudson, Fukudome. Many of them were total flops. Half, at most, were useful players to the Sox.

KW's biggest successes were a handful of young players he brought in before they were well known: Quentin, Alexei, Danks, Floyd. And it was reported that KW had a lot to do with the Abreu signing.

Hahn's veteran acquisitions have been terrible. Keppinger, Belisario, M. Cabrera, LaRoche, Bonifacio, Samardzija, Robertson, Duke, Navarro, Avila, Frazier, Morneau, Jackson, Rollins, Shields, Latos. Almost all of them were flops. And Eaton was the only young "core" player Hahn managed to steal from another organization.

I do think there are mitigating factors. Hahn took over a moribund team, below .500 with few young stars, no farm system and an idiot for a manager (whose job was guaranteed by the Chairman). The budget had been strapped by all the big-name players KW had signed. You can't compare his situation to KW's after 2005.

Cabrera, LaRoche, Robertson, and Samardzija may have been the best hitter/power hitter/reliever/starter on the market when Hahn acquired them.
(That's scary. But there is less talent available in free agency now, because teams extend their young players.) Yet they all stunk in Chicago, and I think it's because the manager allowed them to fail.

I give Hahn credit for getting the organization to turn the page after 2016. Since then, Hahn's made nothing but good moves.

As for Soria and Avilan, they were brought in to take the pressure off the rookie pitchers and probably to be flipped for more prospects. They will not be on the roster of the next contending Sox team. They probably won't even last the season.
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  #342  
Old 01-26-2018, 05:45 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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The White Sox will be extending the protective netting at GRField to the end of each dugout. This change will be in place by the start of the 2018 season:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...126-story.html
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  #343  
Old 01-26-2018, 09:25 PM
hoosiersoxfan hoosiersoxfan is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
The White Sox will be extending the protective netting at GRField to the end of each dugout. This change will be in place by the start of the 2018 season:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...126-story.html
Good move. I hardly notice the net when I'm sitting behind it anyways.
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  #344  
Old 01-29-2018, 12:36 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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The Sox have signed Xavier Cedeno to a minor league deal:
https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/...en-zack-burdi/
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  #345  
Old 02-01-2018, 07:11 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
The White Sox will be extending the protective netting at GRField to the end of each dugout. This change will be in place by the start of the 2018 season:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...126-story.html
Extended netting will actually be installed in all 30 MLB parks by opening day:
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...472183953.html
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