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  #1  
Old 01-22-2019, 09:19 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Default Baseball revenue hijack - My bad

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
Now you have players like Kris Bryant and agents like Borass whining about conspiracies to prevent top free agents from getting signed? Huh? It is undisputed that offers have been made to Machado and Harper. They obviously rejected the offers. How is that on the owners?

Borass admits it is a whole new era now that all the teams are more data-driven than before when crafting their offers based on the value the player brings to the team. This has resulted in very similar offers across the board. This is not collusion, it is the marketplace at work.
It wouldn't be the first time the owners colluded to reduce salaries. I imagine the players are a bit miffed that the top salary per year ceiling hasn't budged since ARod signed his deal. There are also reports that the players' cut of the pie has significantly reduced as a percentage of revenue in the past few years.

There will be a labor stoppage if things don't change soon.
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  #2  
Old 01-22-2019, 10:06 AM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
It wouldn't be the first time the owners colluded to reduce salaries. I imagine the players are a bit miffed that the top salary per year ceiling hasn't budged since ARod signed his deal. There are also reports that the players' cut of the pie has significantly reduced as a percentage of revenue in the past few years.

There will be a labor stoppage if things don't change soon.
While it is probably true that the players might have a case based on reduced % of revenue, the top of the labor market is not evidence of collusion, IMO. I think the owners have enough empirical evidence to show that the massive contracts paid out in the last 10 years or so more often than not fail to result in return on investment (wins and championships). It seems that the players’ case should be built on the reduction in % of revenue and how that is reflected in how the tax threshold is set, which results in middle class and the lower paid players getting squeezed after the bigger contracts are paid out.
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Old 01-22-2019, 10:21 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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The percent of revenue due the players is in an existing contract correct?
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Old 01-22-2019, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by asindc View Post
While it is probably true that the players might have a case based on reduced % of revenue, the top of the labor market is not evidence of collusion, IMO. I think the owners have enough empirical evidence to show that the massive contracts paid out in the last 10 years or so more often than not fail to result in return on investment (wins and championships). It seems that the players’ case should be built on the reduction in % of revenue and how that is reflected in how the tax threshold is set, which results in middle class and the lower paid players getting squeezed after the bigger contracts are paid out.
I agree, but just pointing it out. Certainly seems a bit odd that reportedly there isn't a single team willing to break the bank for one of these two.
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Old 01-22-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
The percent of revenue due the players is in an existing contract correct?
I don't know if they negotiate it that way or not. MLB does not have full revenue sharing the way other sports do. Home teams still keep a much higher percentage of their gate revenue and while there is more revenue sharing than there was a few decades ago, the Yankees (for example) still have a lot more revenue incoming than the Marlins do (for example).

NBA, NFL and NHL are much closer to a full split though there are ways a team can still make more than the other teams it's not as dramatic. Those sports also come a lot closer to having a hard salary cap and definitely do mandate a percentage split to the players.
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:21 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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I suspect that enough bad blood is coming to pass on the players side that unless something substantial changes in the next year or so there will probably be a labor shutdown.

And while I don't think there is outright collusion now, given the history of it in the past, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the owners are doing something deliberate, it has happened before.

If so, at some point someone will talk or someone will find an e-mail or something...it always happens.
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:45 AM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
It wouldn't be the first time the owners colluded to reduce salaries. I imagine the players are a bit miffed that the top salary per year ceiling hasn't budged since ARod signed his deal. There are also reports that the players' cut of the pie has significantly reduced as a percentage of revenue in the past few years.

There will be a labor stoppage if things don't change soon.
I think there is likely going to be a work stoppage unless owners are enlightened enough to want to attempt to address some of the the problems with free agency and the way the CBA is set up, and I doubt they are willing to do that.

But, I don't think there's collusion like there was in the 1980s, where owners all agreed to try and keep salaries low. I think this is more likely a case of front offices mainly thinking alike. There is so much information available now that you can figure out how many wins a player can bring to a team and how much money those extra wins add to a team's bottom line.

A baseball writer tweeted this out, but the new market inefficiency could very well be be willing to spend money.
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:48 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
The percent of revenue due the players is in an existing contract correct?
Yes, and there are penalties to teams that don't spend a specific portion of revenue towards players. What teams have done, however, is used that money toward international free agents and prospects in larger sums while the major league payrolls have stagnated. The Union did not envision a scenario where this would occur (their fault), but on average the percentage of revenue spent on major league rosters has gone down since the last agreement. It's going to be a huge point of contention in the next labor agreement, and will likely lead to a work stopage.
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Old 01-22-2019, 01:05 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Yes, and there are penalties to teams that don't spend a specific portion of revenue towards players. What teams have done, however, is used that money toward international free agents and prospects in larger sums while the major league payrolls have stagnated. The Union did not envision a scenario where this would occur (their fault), but on average the percentage of revenue spent on major league rosters has gone down since the last agreement. It's going to be a huge point of contention in the next labor agreement, and will likely lead to a work stopage.

When the contract expires re-negotiate. Until then honor the contract.


If there is a work stoppage so be it.

Last edited by Grzegorz; 01-22-2019 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 01-22-2019, 01:22 PM
Irishsox1 Irishsox1 is offline
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As a White Sox fan, I welcome a work stoppage.

As for baseball revenue, the biggest contributing factor has been analytics. Analytics have proven that you don't need big free agent contracts for position players to be competitive. Pitching is still key which is why pitchers still make the most money in baseball per appearance.

But the players union and the players agents have the ultimate comeback which is throwing out the mythical "collusion". The media loves that story....big bad owners vs multi millionaire agents and the multi millionaire players. I can't remember who the bad guy in that story is but I guess it doesn't matter. It's a conspiracy!

This year is about two big name free agent position players. Analytics have proven them to be over valued and their attitudes on the field and in the clubhouse have not helped but if people want to blame collusion go right ahead. Every team would be wise to spend the money on other cheaper position players and sign and develop better pitchers.
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  #11  
Old 01-22-2019, 01:41 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irishsox1 View Post
As a White Sox fan, I welcome a work stoppage.
I don't specifically because the timing of it can do serious and long term damage to the Sox franchise.

Remember how they took a beating in the years following the labor impasse of 1994 attendance-wise leading up to the infamous "White Flag Trade" which hammered them even further.

Assuming the Sox are legit contenders in 2020-2021, a labor stoppage, killing their momentum could be the last straw for a number of fans, especially the older ones who remember how the 1981 and 1994 ones dramatically hurt the team.

If this were to happen say this year where the Sox weren't expected to contend or even be mediocre I wouldn't care (in fact I'd welcome it as a chance for baseball to solve some of their issues as well as not have the Sox lose 100 games) but not when it is expected to take place.

It will be a disaster for the franchise (again assuming they are actually contending...)
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Old 01-23-2019, 01:25 PM
Irishsox1 Irishsox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I don't specifically because the timing of it can do serious and long term damage to the Sox franchise.

Remember how they took a beating in the years following the labor impasse of 1994 attendance-wise leading up to the infamous "White Flag Trade" which hammered them even further.

Assuming the Sox are legit contenders in 2020-2021, a labor stoppage, killing their momentum could be the last straw for a number of fans, especially the older ones who remember how the 1981 and 1994 ones dramatically hurt the team.

If this were to happen say this year where the Sox weren't expected to contend or even be mediocre I wouldn't care (in fact I'd welcome it as a chance for baseball to solve some of their issues as well as not have the Sox lose 100 games) but not when it is expected to take place.

It will be a disaster for the franchise (again assuming they are actually contending...)

If baseball goes on a work stoppage it will be at the beginning of the season like the NBA did in 1999 and NHL lockouts in 2004 & 2013. The 2013 season was a Stanley Cup winner for the Hawks....anybody think that year was a disaster for the franchise or the NHL?....All I remember from that was the insane last two minutes against the Bruins, not that the regular season started in January.

I believe that the days of going on strike in season are over. It's better to not start the season and hash out the new deal resulting in a shorter season, rather than start it and then stop it which is why the 1994 season was so frustrating for Sox fans and baseball fans....the what if of the 1994 World Series. Anyways 162 games in too long when you throw in how long the playoffs are now.

If there was a strike/lock out to start the season and the Sox only played 100 games, the average fans that go to the games wouldn't care. Baseball would be starting up right as school was getting out.
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Old 01-23-2019, 07:22 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irishsox1 View Post
If baseball goes on a work stoppage it will be at the beginning of the season like the NBA did in 1999 and NHL lockouts in 2004 & 2013. The 2013 season was a Stanley Cup winner for the Hawks....anybody think that year was a disaster for the franchise or the NHL?....All I remember from that was the insane last two minutes against the Bruins, not that the regular season started in January.

I believe that the days of going on strike in season are over. It's better to not start the season and hash out the new deal resulting in a shorter season, rather than start it and then stop it which is why the 1994 season was so frustrating for Sox fans and baseball fans....the what if of the 1994 World Series. Anyways 162 games in too long when you throw in how long the playoffs are now.

If there was a strike/lock out to start the season and the Sox only played 100 games, the average fans that go to the games wouldn't care. Baseball would be starting up right as school was getting out.
I don't think it matters if the stoppage took place before the season, during the season or during the stretch in September. It would badly hurt the Sox franchise in my opinion.

And I personally think a big labor impasse / stoppage is coming.
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Old 01-24-2019, 09:18 AM
Irishsox1 Irishsox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I don't think it matters if the stoppage took place before the season, during the season or during the stretch in September. It would badly hurt the Sox franchise in my opinion.

And I personally think a big labor impasse / stoppage is coming.

If a stoppage occurs, starting the season later would be the best option for the White Sox and the sport in general.


As for the Sox franchise, at this point I think were in a countdown until Reinsdorf's group sells the team.
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