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  #16  
Old 06-19-2019, 01:58 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Cole will set the market. The White Sox do not sign players who set the market. They sign whoever is left in the next tier down when the dust settles.

With regards to signing Cole, I see the White Sox doing what they always do:

1) Claiming to be ďin the mixĒ to keep the teamís name in the news during the winter

2) Offering 70 or 80 cents on the dollar

3) Losing Cole to another team who doesnít treat the MLB free agency process like putting in a lowball bid on a house

4) Trying to suggest that signing the less-talented pitcher we sign instead of Cole is somehow a better overall choice for the team.

If I had to guess, the guy I see the White Sox signing is Zach Wheeler. Fewer years and less money coming off a down year, plus the allure of possible above-market-value production that this team finds oh-so-irresistible, despite being burned by it time and time again.
and that's why I moved this thread early...
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  #17  
Old 06-19-2019, 02:10 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
and that's why I moved this thread early...
The only reason I posted this is because you moved the thread, and I thought that made it free for us to discuss things brought up earlier in the thread.
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  #18  
Old 06-19-2019, 02:22 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Machado certainly would have had a place on this team at 3b without effecting Moncada and or Anderson as previously stated by a few already, but I don't think it's as detrimental of a miss as we all thought back in Feb. This offense should be potent enough without him with Eloy, Vaughn, Robert, Moncada, Anderson, etc.

Without having $30 mil tied up annually, getting SP help will be quite a bit easier. Gerrit Cole will be pricy and sought after, I think the Sox only are interested in 5-6 years max for him. Not sure we will be that much in on him. Others that I think are real possibilities are Odorrizzi, Hamels, Bumgarner, and Greinke (via trade).
Count me as another fan with something other than a binary "blessing" or "disaster" feeling about missing out on Machado.

No doubt having Machado instead of Sanchez as a starting infielder would be a HUGE improvement to the 2018 team. That's a no-brainer. Looking to the future though, I don't think it's crazy to think an IF of Moncada-Anderson-Madrigal plus $30M/year more in payroll to spend on other roster needs will end up being a net plus for this franchise.

I'm well aware of the legitimate questions of whether Sox ownership will ever be willing spend that $$ on top tier FAs. And yes, of course Madrigal could turn out to be a huge bust. Lots of "what ifs" to fret about but without a crystal ball, we won't know for sure for another year to two.
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  #19  
Old 06-19-2019, 02:44 PM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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As I've stated many times before, I don't think the big additions to the 2020 and 2021 White Sox are going to come via the free agent market. For one, there simply aren't free agents out there, everyone is signing long-term extensions. I think the big additions to the 2020 and 2021 White Sox are going to come via trades.

The Sox have traded for big-name players: Bartolo Colon, Alex Rios, David Wells, Freddy Garcia, Jim Thome, etc. Some of these worked out really well, some less so. But they have and can make a big splash in the trade market that they can't or won't make in the FA market.
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  #20  
Old 06-19-2019, 02:47 PM
JermaineDye05 JermaineDye05 is offline
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Default Whiffing on Machado was an exercise of ineptitude by the front office.

Fixed it for you.

Regardless of the on-field results in 2019, the Front Office still screwed up massively this offseason and it should not be overlooked. I'm still personally upset with the FO about that and really have yet to forgive them for that. Everything else on the field, I give credit to the players, save for the McCann signing which appears just be due to luck in catching lightning in a bottle.
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  #21  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:07 PM
longtimefan longtimefan is offline
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There is no doubt Machado would have made this team better but I wanted the Sox management to pursue pitching. When Kopeck went down with TJS, my opinion was the focus should have been on getting a top-line starter (and not an excellent 3rd baseman).
You just can't win with sub-par pitching. The Sox are doing amazingly well IMO with really only one starter who you can really count on.
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  #22  
Old 06-19-2019, 04:04 PM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
No one would have moved to the outfield. Machado would have played 3B, Anderson and Moncada would have stayed at SS and 2B respectively, Yolmer would have moved to the bench, and Rondon would have been gone.

Yolmerís 0.4 WAR would be replaced by Machadoís 1.9 WAR, and Rondonís -0.2 WAR would have been replaced by Yolmerís 0.4 WAR. Machado would have been a 200-point OPS upgrade to the everyday lineup and provided some much-needed thump to the middle of this order.

There is absolutely no way we are a better baseball team without Manny Machado than we would have been with him.
That kind of misses the point except for the part about keeping Moncada at 2nd. My post was based on the assumption that OF for either Anderson or Moncada was likely to make room for Nick Madrigal. Also, I think the move to 3rd has helped Moncada offensively but obviously that's a tough thing to prove.

But the main point is that they'd have been somewhat hamstrung from addressing what has since been revealed as their greatest need - starting pitching. Before the season, there were big question marks about Moncada and Anderson and Rodon was healthy, so position players were arguably our biggest issue/need. Now, Moncada and Anderson are emerging as potential stars, Eloy looks like a generational talent, Robert and Madrigal are climbing the Top 100 ranks, and Rodon is out until probably August at the earliest.

In summary, I think the money they had planned on spending on Machado is better spent on pitching now that they have a better sense of where they're weakest. And call me naive, but I do believe that they will offer Cole a market-setting deal. Just a hunch. Whether he picks the Sox over someone else will remain to be seen and is out of their control.
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  #23  
Old 06-19-2019, 04:13 PM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Originally Posted by JermaineDye05 View Post
Fixed it for you.

Regardless of the on-field results in 2019, the Front Office still screwed up massively this offseason and it should not be overlooked. I'm still personally upset with the FO about that and really have yet to forgive them for that. Everything else on the field, I give credit to the players, save for the McCann signing which appears just be due to luck in catching lightning in a bottle.
Because the Sox failed to sign Machado they don't get credit for any of the good things that are happening? Oh, I mean besides McCann, but that's just luck.

Really?
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  #24  
Old 06-19-2019, 04:22 PM
TDog TDog is online now
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I was against signing Machado for the terms Machado was demanding, and I still believe the White Sox were better off without his contract. I don't think what he has done for the Padres this season, aside from a weekend in Colorado, has really justified his contract, certainly not the idea tossed around that he would become as the greatest hitter in Padres history.

San Diego is a city that respects pure hitting with a freeway named for Ted Williams and a statue of Tony Gwynn outside the ballpark. I'm not sure the Machado love will be going strong very deep into the 2020s.
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  #25  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:03 PM
JermaineDye05 JermaineDye05 is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
Because the Sox failed to sign Machado they don't get credit for any of the good things that are happening? Oh, I mean besides McCann, but that's just luck.

Really?
With the exception of Tim Anderson, the majority of the players that are excelling right now came from outside of the organization. Save for the James Shields/Tatis deal, this team has usually been pretty good in terms of trading players. However free agency has always been an issue with this team. They have a pretty poor track record of just giving bad money to bad players and when an offseason approached with two PREMIUM talents and they were essentially one of three teams with the supposed resources and will to acquire either, they lowballed one and didn’t even bother with the other. It makes one question where their priorities truly lie with the team, and it’s hard for me to have any sort of confidence in them going forward when they seem more concerned in saving the most money possible. I still firmly believe the team would really benefit from a change in ownership but that doesn’t appear to be happening anytime soon.
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  #26  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:11 PM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by JermaineDye05 View Post
With the exception of Tim Anderson, the majority of the players that are excelling right now came from outside of the organization. Save for the James Shields/Tatis deal, this team has usually been pretty good in terms of trading players. However free agency has always been an issue with this team. They have a pretty poor track record of just giving bad money to bad players and when an offseason approached with two PREMIUM talents and they were essentially one of three teams with the supposed resources and will to acquire either, they lowballed one and didnít even bother with the other. It makes one question where their priorities truly lie with the team, and itís hard for me to have any sort of confidence in them going forward when they seem more concerned in saving the most money possible. I still firmly believe the team would really benefit from a change in ownership but that doesnít appear to be happening anytime soon.
1) Whether or not a player was acquired through draft or trade or FA, he was acquired nonetheless.

2) So do I.
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  #27  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:12 PM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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Machado isn't the issue. The issue is that the Sox made their intention clear: they will not be a serious player for a serious free agent when the Sox need one.

That is the issue. Manny, Bryce, Gerritt, etc will all pass this club by for that sole reason. You can console yourself by saying "look at the bad years they are having", but the reality remains that this club will have to luck itself into winning a title because they will not sign the guys necessary to do it.
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  #28  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:17 PM
JermaineDye05 JermaineDye05 is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
Machado isn't the issue. The issue is that the Sox made their intention clear: they will not be a serious player for a serious free agent when the Sox need one.

That is the issue. Manny, Bryce, Gerritt, etc will all pass this club by for that sole reason. You can console yourself by saying "look at the bad years they are having", but the reality remains that this club will have to luck itself into winning a title because they will not sign the guys necessary to do it.
Exactly. And what happens when their own players whom they aren’t able to get early team friendly deals with hit FA?

I will give the Sox credit in that area as well. They have been good at locking up their young stars to really, really good contracts which certainly helped bolster the halls they got in each trade. Unfortunately, they won’t always be able to do that. You have to be willing pay when the time comes and that’s the problem with this organization. They really don’t seem committed to paying the big money when it’s necessary.

Last edited by JermaineDye05; 06-19-2019 at 08:24 PM.
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  #29  
Old 06-19-2019, 09:13 PM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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Originally Posted by JermaineDye05 View Post
Exactly. And what happens when their own players whom they arenít able to get early team friendly deals with hit FA?

I will give the Sox credit in that area as well. They have been good at locking up their young stars to really, really good contracts which certainly helped bolster the halls they got in each trade. Unfortunately, they wonít always be able to do that. You have to be willing pay when the time comes and thatís the problem with this organization. They really donít seem committed to paying the big money when itís necessary.
The problem with this organization is that they are built like the Royals:

Pray to whatever deity you believe in that every single prospect hits so you do not have to shop on the market, ride it out until you win a title, and then prepare to lose them all via trade and free agency. The issue there, of course, is that minor-leaguers are volatile. Look at our pitcher injuries, time of development, etc.

We will either luck ourselves into a title, or we will be discussing another rebuild in a decade with a playoff run or two in between.

Either way, nothing the Sox are doing shows a want to create sustainable success.
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  #30  
Old 06-19-2019, 09:59 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
Couldn't disagree more. Machado was a once-in-a-generation talent and there will be nothing like him available on the FA market when the Sox are in their window of contention. Nor are Moncada or Anderson likely to match his production.

I am simply skeptical of the idea that Moncada and Anderson are having breakout seasons at the plate solely because of the defensive position they play. More likely, had the Sox offered a mere $50 million more for Machado, Yolmer would be gone and the Sox would have Moncada, Anderson, and Machado in the heart of their lineup. They could easily be 3-4 games over .500 at this point.


And the $300 million just gets ignored?

Right.
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