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  #1  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:53 AM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Default Whiffing on Machado was a blessing

Had the Sox spent the $300mm+, it would have meant that either Anderson or Moncada would have been pushed to the OF. I'm not sure either would be enjoying a breakout season if that were the case. You also add a player that for all of his talent, is kind of a jackass. I'm not sure that would have been the best in terms of clubhouse chemistry which seems to be amazing right now.

Now, they know that pitching is their achilles and the money that they'd earmarked for Machado can be used to fill some of those holes. Cole is obviously the biggest target but it's pretty easy to improve upon Nova, Despaigne, Banuelos, Santana, Covey, etc. even if they miss on him. Just adding Kopech and Cease to the rotation will be an immediate improvement even if they go through some growing pains.

They'll also likely be adding Robert and Madrigal at some point which will improve both their defense and offense.

We're on the cusp of seeing this rebuild come to fruition and it's going to be glorious.
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  #2  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:57 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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I was thinking the same thing.


I think the position player half of our roster is shaping up to be quite good over the next 1.5 seasons, and there are multiple options to fill some positions (2B, 1B, CF, RF) in the short term while we wait for the longer-term fixtures (Madrigal, Vaughn, Robert, Basabe/Adoldo/Rutherford/Walker/Gonzalez).


With that, then, Hahn can focus on acquiring whatever starting pitching is necessary to take the next steps.
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  #3  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:59 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
Had the Sox spent the $300mm+, it would have meant that either Anderson or Moncada would have been pushed to the OF. I'm not sure either would be enjoying a breakout season if that were the case. You also add a player that for all of his talent, is kind of a jackass. I'm not sure that would have been the best in terms of clubhouse chemistry which seems to be amazing right now.

Now, they know that pitching is their achilles and the money that they'd earmarked for Machado can be used to fill some of those holes. Cole is obviously the biggest target but it's pretty easy to improve upon Nova, Despaigne, Banuelos, Santana, Covey, etc. even if they miss on him. Just adding Kopech and Cease to the rotation will be an immediate improvement even if they go through some growing pains.

They'll also likely be adding Robert and Madrigal at some point which will improve both their defense and offense.

We're on the cusp of seeing this rebuild come to fruition and it's going to be glorious.
100% agreement
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  #4  
Old 06-19-2019, 11:11 AM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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Couldn't disagree more. Machado was a once-in-a-generation talent and there will be nothing like him available on the FA market when the Sox are in their window of contention. Nor are Moncada or Anderson likely to match his production.

I am simply skeptical of the idea that Moncada and Anderson are having breakout seasons at the plate solely because of the defensive position they play. More likely, had the Sox offered a mere $50 million more for Machado, Yolmer would be gone and the Sox would have Moncada, Anderson, and Machado in the heart of their lineup. They could easily be 3-4 games over .500 at this point.
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  #5  
Old 06-19-2019, 09:59 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
Couldn't disagree more. Machado was a once-in-a-generation talent and there will be nothing like him available on the FA market when the Sox are in their window of contention. Nor are Moncada or Anderson likely to match his production.

I am simply skeptical of the idea that Moncada and Anderson are having breakout seasons at the plate solely because of the defensive position they play. More likely, had the Sox offered a mere $50 million more for Machado, Yolmer would be gone and the Sox would have Moncada, Anderson, and Machado in the heart of their lineup. They could easily be 3-4 games over .500 at this point.


And the $300 million just gets ignored?

Right.
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  #6  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:14 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
... They could easily be 3-4 games over .500 at this point.

Not with this pitching staff.

But if you're looking for production from an infielder this year, you could have gotten more from Moustakas for a fraction of the commitment.
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  #7  
Old 06-19-2019, 11:18 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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No one would have moved to the outfield. Machado would have played 3B, Anderson and Moncada would have stayed at SS and 2B respectively, Yolmer would have moved to the bench, and Rondon would have been gone.

Yolmer’s 0.4 WAR would be replaced by Machado’s 1.9 WAR, and Rondon’s -0.2 WAR would have been replaced by Yolmer’s 0.4 WAR. Machado would have been a 200-point OPS upgrade to the everyday lineup and provided some much-needed thump to the middle of this order.

There is absolutely no way we are a better baseball team without Manny Machado than we would have been with him.
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  #8  
Old 06-19-2019, 11:28 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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I don’t know which free agent starters people are hoping to see the White Sox add, but this list is pretty disappointing.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/...ee-agents.html
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  #9  
Old 06-19-2019, 12:32 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
I don’t know which free agent starters people are hoping to see the White Sox add, but this list is pretty disappointing.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/...ee-agents.html
Gerrit Cole (29)

That would be pretty sweet....
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  #10  
Old 06-19-2019, 12:45 PM
blurry blurry is offline
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I also disagree that missing out on Machado was a blessing for this team for the same reasons everyone stated- he'd make the team far better than what we have now. Sure that would mean Moncada at 2nd which also means Madrigal doesn't have a spot. So what? Trade him. He likely isn't going to be better than Moncada or Anderson on the infield anyway and he doesn't have the power to be an outfielder.

And given how thin the FA market will be for good starting pitching, Cole is about to get paid and I highly doubt this ownership gets him. Cole will probably be overpaid but that's what happens when he's really the only great free agent starter.
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  #11  
Old 06-19-2019, 01:34 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Gerrit Cole (29)

That would be pretty sweet....
Cole will set the market. The White Sox do not sign players who set the market. They sign whoever is left in the next tier down when the dust settles.

With regards to signing Cole, I see the White Sox doing what they always do:

1) Claiming to be “in the mix” to keep the team’s name in the news during the winter

2) Offering 70 or 80 cents on the dollar

3) Losing Cole to another team who doesn’t treat the MLB free agency process like putting in a lowball bid on a house

4) Trying to suggest that signing the less-talented pitcher we sign instead of Cole is somehow a better overall choice for the team.

If I had to guess, the guy I see the White Sox signing is Zach Wheeler. Fewer years and less money coming off a down year, plus the allure of possible above-market-value production that this team finds oh-so-irresistible, despite being burned by it time and time again.
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  #12  
Old 06-19-2019, 04:04 PM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
No one would have moved to the outfield. Machado would have played 3B, Anderson and Moncada would have stayed at SS and 2B respectively, Yolmer would have moved to the bench, and Rondon would have been gone.

Yolmer’s 0.4 WAR would be replaced by Machado’s 1.9 WAR, and Rondon’s -0.2 WAR would have been replaced by Yolmer’s 0.4 WAR. Machado would have been a 200-point OPS upgrade to the everyday lineup and provided some much-needed thump to the middle of this order.

There is absolutely no way we are a better baseball team without Manny Machado than we would have been with him.
That kind of misses the point except for the part about keeping Moncada at 2nd. My post was based on the assumption that OF for either Anderson or Moncada was likely to make room for Nick Madrigal. Also, I think the move to 3rd has helped Moncada offensively but obviously that's a tough thing to prove.

But the main point is that they'd have been somewhat hamstrung from addressing what has since been revealed as their greatest need - starting pitching. Before the season, there were big question marks about Moncada and Anderson and Rodon was healthy, so position players were arguably our biggest issue/need. Now, Moncada and Anderson are emerging as potential stars, Eloy looks like a generational talent, Robert and Madrigal are climbing the Top 100 ranks, and Rodon is out until probably August at the earliest.

In summary, I think the money they had planned on spending on Machado is better spent on pitching now that they have a better sense of where they're weakest. And call me naive, but I do believe that they will offer Cole a market-setting deal. Just a hunch. Whether he picks the Sox over someone else will remain to be seen and is out of their control.
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  #13  
Old 06-19-2019, 04:22 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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I was against signing Machado for the terms Machado was demanding, and I still believe the White Sox were better off without his contract. I don't think what he has done for the Padres this season, aside from a weekend in Colorado, has really justified his contract, certainly not the idea tossed around that he would become as the greatest hitter in Padres history.

San Diego is a city that respects pure hitting with a freeway named for Ted Williams and a statue of Tony Gwynn outside the ballpark. I'm not sure the Machado love will be going strong very deep into the 2020s.
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  #14  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:06 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
No one would have moved to the outfield. Machado would have played 3B, Anderson and Moncada would have stayed at SS and 2B respectively, Yolmer would have moved to the bench, and Rondon would have been gone.

Yolmer’s 0.4 WAR would be replaced by Machado’s 1.9 WAR, and Rondon’s -0.2 WAR would have been replaced by Yolmer’s 0.4 WAR. Machado would have been a 200-point OPS upgrade to the everyday lineup and provided some much-needed thump to the middle of this order.

There is absolutely no way we are a better baseball team without Manny Machado than we would have been with him.
You're assuming that Machado would have stepped aside to 3B and give SS to Tim Anderson.

The demands he had were he wanted to play SS wherever he landed. The Padres somehow convinced him that Tatis was the real deal, and he bought into that . The Sox had nothing to sell Tim Anderson on, he's been a terrible ML SS up until this year.
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  #15  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:29 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
You're assuming that Machado would have stepped aside to 3B and give SS to Tim Anderson.

The demands he had were he wanted to play SS wherever he landed. The Padres somehow convinced him that Tatis was the real deal, and he bought into that . The Sox had nothing to sell Tim Anderson on, he's been a terrible ML SS up until this year.
The Padres convinced him with a nine-figure deal that began with a “3.” We tried to convince him with Yonder Alonso, Jon Jay, and a $50 million pay cut.
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