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  #121  
Old 06-21-2018, 02:58 PM
KingXerxes KingXerxes is offline
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I was an advocate for a complete and total rebuild on this board two years ago. I still am even though the results haven't been exactly great - these things take time. I agree with many on this thread who are worried about the non-emergence of certain players, but the White Sox have a long way to go, and many more moves to be made, and the only thing to do is wait until things come together. The 2012 Cubs (at this point in the season) had almost an identical record as do the White Sox this year, outside of Rizzo and Castro almost their entire roster was turned by the time they were in the 2015 NLCS. There are still, or should be, a whole lot of changes to the White Sox roster in the next couple of years as well. This record and such do not bother me.

What is driving me crazy though is the coverage (both television and radio) of the games this year. A few weeks into the season I had already grown tired of the announcers constantly steering everything that happened on the field into a rebuild mantra "Oh Boy! I just can't wait until a few years from now" just because an outfielder made a nice catch. Odds are that the outfielder who made that catch will be moved by the time the White Sox are set to compete.

Two weeks ago, after a loss, Darrin Jackson says something to the effect of, "Well we lost, but in the 8th inning we saw a double play turned in a fashion which we haven't seen for years, and will continue to see in the years to come."

To both the television and radio crew; We get it. The White Sox are rebuilding. The team is filled with either raw or AAAA talent right now. Things will change as the years roll by, rosters will be churned, and hopefully fans will see good results come out of all of this. But for right now please quit picking fly crap out of a mountain of pepper to only hold it up, remind us for the 10,000th time they're in a rebuild, and talk about how everything is headed up and up and up,

We get it - we're not stupid.
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  #122  
Old 06-21-2018, 03:13 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Right. I'm also not demanding a World Series in 2020, although I'd certainly take one. I am, however, expecting to be a winning team in 2020. If they are 86-76 with the arrow pointing up that season, it's fine. And frankly, I would take that right now, given the current state of affairs. The Sox almost certainly will be a losing team again in 2019.
As expected and as has always been expected since this process started.
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  #123  
Old 06-21-2018, 04:23 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile
As expected and as has always been expected since this process started.
Exactly.

By now, we should be well past the point of day-to-day complaining about how bad this team is. This level of angst is just plain illogical this early in the process.
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  #124  
Old 06-21-2018, 05:09 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Exactly.

By now, we should be well past the point of day-to-day complaining about how bad this team is. This level of angst is just plain illogical this early in the process.
Mohoney: Just curious, at what point in your judgement is it no longer early. Honestly I was hoping with some free agent additions this winter (The Sox won't get the big ones) they could be more respectable, maybe 75 wins in 2019.
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  #125  
Old 06-21-2018, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Mohoney: Just curious, at what point in your judgement is it no longer early. Honestly I was hoping with some free agent additions this winter (The Sox won't get the big ones) they could be more respectable, maybe 75 wins in 2019.
Which would still be a losing season. Not sure why they'd be going after FA this off season unless they can land a superstar/stud like Machado for the next decade. The primary season to start adding FA would be in off-season before 2020 season, but until they have an idea of how many of their prospects are going to pan out as good MLB players they don't know who to sign.

At least that's the way I see it.

No longer early for me would be end of 2019. By then they need to be seeing consistency and competency from Moncada, Anderson, Lopez, Giolito and hopefully Kopech and Jimenez minimum with Robert, Collins and others having recently been called up or expected up for 2020.
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  #126  
Old 06-21-2018, 06:03 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1
Mohoney: Just curious, at what point in your judgement is it no longer early. Honestly I was hoping with some free agent additions this winter (The Sox won't get the big ones) they could be more respectable, maybe 75 wins in 2019.
I would think that "no longer early" would be somewhere around the middle or end of 2020. We're still looking at a situation where eight current/former "top 100" guys are sitting on zero major league appearances, and we may be looking at a situation at the end of 2019 where as many as six of these guys will still be sitting on zero major league appearances.

Jimenez
Kopech
Robert
Hansen
Cease
Dunning
Rutherford
Collins
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  #127  
Old 06-21-2018, 06:16 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
which would still be a losing season. Not sure why they'd be going after fa this off season unless they can land a superstar/stud like machado for the next decade. The primary season to start adding fa would be in off-season before 2020 season, but until they have an idea of how many of their prospects are going to pan out as good mlb players they don't know who to sign.

At least that's the way i see it.

No longer early for me would be end of 2019. By then they need to be seeing consistency and competency from moncada, anderson, lopez, giolito and hopefully kopech and jimenez minimum with robert, collins and others having recently been called up or expected up for 2020.

+1
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  #128  
Old 06-21-2018, 06:41 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Which would still be a losing season. Not sure why they'd be going after FA this off season unless they can land a superstar/stud like Machado for the next decade. The primary season to start adding FA would be in off-season before 2020 season, but until they have an idea of how many of their prospects are going to pan out as good MLB players they don't know who to sign.

At least that's the way I see it.
They need to start building a bullpen in anticipation of having it in place and ready when the kids start coming up in droves. Going into next year with this awful bullpen will mentally screw up the players who are expected to be part of the rebuild as well as cause the fan base to lose even more faith.

You can't keep giving away games left and right. Yes it is still a losing season but at least it can be respectable with progress easily shown to everyone.
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  #129  
Old 06-21-2018, 07:01 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1
Going into next year with this awful bullpen will mentally screw up the players who are expected to be part of the rebuild as well as cause the fan base to lose even more faith.
The bullpen is the last thing that is going to be fixed. Even in the period when the team hopefully transitions from bad to good, they still will lose in the late innings at an above-normal rate. It's up to field management and front office executives to prevent it from causing any "loss of faith" among the players.

As for the fans? They're just going to have to develop thicker skin when it comes to losing baseball games.
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  #130  
Old 06-21-2018, 07:07 PM
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I'm not overly concerned about building a bullpen (and agree that it should be among the last pieces to fix). Some of the young studs who are currently starters in the minors will likely find themselves in the White Sox bullpen down the road. For example, guys with great stuff who never develop a third pitch can be successful relievers. And the Sox have consistently been able to cobble together above average (sometimes excellent) bullpens in the past.
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  #131  
Old 06-21-2018, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
I'm not overly concerned about building a bullpen (and agree that it should be among the last pieces to fix). Some of the young studs who are currently starters in the minors will likely find themselves in the White Sox bullpen down the road. For example, guys with great stuff who never develop a third pitch can be successful relievers. And the Sox have consistently been able to cobble together above average (sometimes excellent) bullpens in the past.
Almost every single high end reliever in the majors is a failed starter. Very few come from college as relievers.
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  #132  
Old 06-22-2018, 01:22 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Yes the team was expected to have a losing record.
But was it expected that the rebuild would produce zero plus major leaguers nearing the end of year 2 of the rebuild?
Moncada, Giolito, Lopez, Fulmer - all top prospects, all up. None are even average (okay maybe Lopez is if you stretch it).
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  #133  
Old 06-22-2018, 07:17 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Almost every single high end reliever in the majors is a failed starter. Very few come from college as relievers.
Plus we have a number of bullpen prospects progressing to AA/AAA- it's been a while since we had any real quality bullpen talent coming from our own system.

I think Fry and possibly Bummer are potential future pieces.

Add a recovering Burdi, and Vieira and Ian Hamilton at AAA.

A number of guys at AA to keep an eye on- Ruiz, and the recently promoted Thompson and Foster.

Plus whatever guys don't make it as starters-

The 2019 bullpen will have some of these guys- and be less reliant on the FA market (mostly dumpster diving).
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Players that are an important part of the rebuild:
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  #134  
Old 06-22-2018, 11:06 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Yes the team was expected to have a losing record.
But was it expected that the rebuild would produce zero plus major leaguers nearing the end of year 2 of the rebuild?
Moncada, Giolito, Lopez, Fulmer - all top prospects, all up. None are even average (okay maybe Lopez is if you stretch it).
We're nearing the end of the season already? We're not even 1.5 seasons into the rebuild at this point in time. You keep saying we're nearing the end of year 2 when we're not even at the all-star break in year 2.

My outlook? If you look at all the top prospects acquired since the rebuild (majors and minors), most are actually having pretty good seasons. Dunning, Cease, Jimenez, Collins (actually drafted before the rebuild began after the 2016 season), and a number of others have looked really good. Many just got well-earned promotions to the next level, meaning they're one step closer to Chicago. I know that means squat to some because these guys haven't proved anything yet in the majors, but I still see the rebuild as being on track despite Moncada's and Giolito's struggles.

But, as another poster said yesterday, there's really no point in arguing with people who want to keep arguing about the failure of a multi-year rebuild project on a day-to-day basis and want to make every losing streak a referendum on the Sox front office.

....oh, and that being said, I also agree with Lip that Sox fans have every right to be impatient and doubtful after the crapfest that this team has given us for the last 7 years or so. So, I get where the lack of patients is coming from.

Last edited by Hitmen77; 06-22-2018 at 11:18 AM.
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  #135  
Old 06-22-2018, 11:18 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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3 years was how many miserable seasons the Cubs and Astros endured during the rebuild before making the playoffs. Braves and Phillies are currently in year 4 of their rebuilds, which puts them in that 3 miserable season level.
3 is reasonable if the Sox are willing to clean house if it's not delivered..
I generally agree with this. As others has said, that doesn't mean that heads should roll if we have anything short of a pennant in 2020, but by that season it should be pretty clear to us whether this rebuild is in trouble and people should be held accountable.

Like JB said, if 2020 gives us an 86-win season with lots of signs the team is trending upward, that's good. If we're still a below .500 team at that point, then it'll become clear that the Sox FO is failing and changes need to be made.
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