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  #16  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:41 AM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
I'm still holding out hope Lopez will develop through this season and become a more consistent starter going forward. It's why he should continue to pitch every 5th day the rest of the year.
Oh absolutely. Baseball is a weird game, look at how much Giolito struggled and he was able to come back. Maybe Lopez won't ever be an ace, but if he can figure out a way to be a serviceable fourth or fifth starter, that's huge.
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  #17  
Old 06-20-2019, 12:45 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
The Cubs rebuild took the next step when they went out in the offseason and signed an elite but old starter to what was then one of the biggest contracts in baseball. Unless we're going out and signing someone to a $300 million contract, our rebuild is more in line with that of teams like the Pirates, A's, and Rays.
Unless the Sox go and spend $300 mil on a player they are a bottom 3 market, OK
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  #18  
Old 06-20-2019, 12:54 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is online now
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We'll see how it all plays out- I see the main achilles heal of the Cubs' rebuild being their lack of ability to develop pitching leading them to big veteran contracts like Lester, Darvish and Hamels or trading valuable prospects to acquire Quintana.

I think the Sox were looking to have a more balanced approach between position players (Eloy, Yoan, TA7, Robert, Madrigal, etc.) and pitching (Burdi, Giolito, Lopez, Kopech, Cease, Dunning, Rodon)- but the 4 TJ surgeries are putting a huge hole in that piece.

One aspect of the Cubs' run to 4 consecutive post season appearances was that they have really avoided any major injuries to their key players.
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  #19  
Old 06-20-2019, 02:31 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
The Cubs rebuild took the next step when they went out in the offseason and signed an elite but old starter to what was then one of the biggest contracts in baseball. Unless we're going out and signing someone to a $300 million contract, our rebuild is more in line with that of teams like the Pirates, A's, and Rays.



Yes, that one potential $300 million pitcher is what will keep the Sox from contending next year or the year after. There is nothing else that can be done aside from throwing money at a FA pitcher to get this team to compete next year.
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  #20  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:03 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by kobo View Post



Yes, that one potential $300 million pitcher is what will keep the Sox from contending next year or the year after. There is nothing else that can be done aside from throwing money at a FA pitcher to get this team to compete next year.

If you understand what those teams do when they rebuild - trade away all their players to kickstart a rebuild, have a very short window that they supplement with middle tier free agents and reclamation projects, and then repeat...you'd understand why that is infinitely more an apt comparison than the Cubs rebuild, which included two $200+ million signings (high at the time) and has continued with those investments since.
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  #21  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:03 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Unless the Sox go and spend $300 mil on a player they are a bottom 3 market, OK

Yeah, that's what I wrote.
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  #22  
Old 06-20-2019, 04:50 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
The Cubs rebuild took the next step when they went out in the offseason and signed an elite but old starter to what was then one of the biggest contracts in baseball. Unless we're going out and signing someone to a $300 million contract, our rebuild is more in line with that of teams like the Pirates, A's, and Rays.

This simply isn't true. The A's would be making Moncada and Giolito available for trade at the deadline. It's possible Giolito could be held back this year in hopes a Cy Young Award would increase his value. Certainly the A's would lobby for Jimenez to win the Rookie of the Year Award to increase his trade value.

The only resemblance between the Cubs rebuild and the White Sox rebuild is that the teams were bad before they started to get better. Where the Cubs were getting a future Cy Young Award winner and bullpen help for Scott Feldman, the White Sox were trading Chris Sale. At least the White Sox didn't throw money at the problem by signing someone who wasn't worth a $300 million contract, restricting future moves. The White Sox could eventually get Machado, though. Up the road when the Padres are again in rebuild mode and looking to dump Machado's contract, they will be looking for a great prospect.
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  #23  
Old 06-21-2019, 06:30 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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No two situations are ever the same. Still, there are interesting parallels. But first, I digress...

One thing I like about this rebuild is that the position player side looks significantly broader than previous Sox rebuilds in the 1990s and the 2000s. On the other hand, the pitching side of this rebuild has a lot of question marks simply due to injuries. Then again, while the early 2000s Sox had an amazing hitting core, there appeared also to be a great stable of pitching prospects. Interestingly, from that group only Buehrle and Garland emerged to contribute, and the position player group underwent a significant overhaul before 2005.

What I like about our current rebuild stock of position player prospects is:

1. Elite speed (Robert, Anderson, Madrigal)

2. Elite hit tools (Madrigal, Vaughn, Eloy)

3. Elite HR power tools (Eloy, Vaughn, Collins) or at least lots of XBH (Robert, Anderson, Moncada)

4. Elite plate discipline (Moncada, Collins, Vaughn)

Depending on who our backup catcher is (someone who can balance out Collins with good defense and hit LHP decently), and who emerges to fill RF, we should have a lineup filled with hitters who are not easy to get out. In previous Sox rebuilds, this wasnít the case. The 1990s team always seemed to have a hole, the early 2000s team had too many similar hitters, and the 2006-2008 team had too many one-dimensional hitters and holes at the bottom of the lineup.

Circling back to the Cubs comparison, then...

The Cubs rebuild had lots of good position players, but because they had a hole in the outfield they also went out and spent a fortune on Heyward. His contract has hamstrung their ability to sign additional needed starting pitchers after signing Lester, other than sinking another wasted fortune into Darvish. Thatís what made Quintana - signed to a cheap contract - so valuable to them, and we benefitted from their desperation.

The Sox have lots of internal options to fill RF and DH, and they should be relatively inexpensive. If just one of them emerges, it will allow the Sox flexibility to fill whatever holes remain in the rotation, should they choose to do so.
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  #24  
Old 06-21-2019, 07:23 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Yeah, that's what I wrote.
I didnít realize that 27 other teams were throwing around $300M contracts.
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  #25  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:22 AM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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It is very easy to sign a FA Pitcher to a 300M contract.

Call his agent and say "$300,000,000.00 for your guy." The agent will say yes since the next best offer on the table is $5,000,000/year for three years. Easy peasy.

Even Shields would agree to that offer.
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  #26  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:56 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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It all comes down to a measure of internal ability now.

The Sox did a good job of getting a lot of quality young parts.

Now, can they get BIG, IMPACT FA to sign here, Can they make quality trades, and can they develop what is left in the minors.

I think we should have atleast 3 quality rotation pieces going forward in Gio-Cease and Kopech.

You would hope one of Dunning, Rodon, Hansen, Lopez can be an acceptable 5th SP.

But you have to sign that experienced ace veteran to lead the staff. It has to happen.

You like to think your IF is pretty much set now for the future, but Vaughn and Madrigal have to develop and Madrigal has to atleast hit for doubles power. Not saying they won't, it isn't done yet.

You like to think 2/3 of your OF is set, but Robert has not seen 1 big league pitch and Eloy hasn't been here long enough to say hes proven.

Collins has not caught one inning.

So I think you have frame work, you have tent poles. You are pouring the foundation, but it isn't set.

What the Cubs did a tremendous job is: Supplementing what they had with great trades and signings. Rizzo for Cashner, Russel for Shark (talking talent, Russel is a total POS human), Lester, Seeing something in Arrieta that they thought they could fix etc. Heyward was a huge overpay, but he also has provided a lot of leadership to those kids, played great D, and come up big at times when they needed him too.

The Sox have to do the same. This working is going to mean you HAVE to add one outside bat at a minimum and one big outside arm.

You could then that the failed SP prospects and RP specs we have can make up a quality young bullpen - Hansen, Burdi, Marshall, Lopez could be a really good big 4 in a pen.

And honestly, if we have the success the cubs did, A world series, a bunch of ALCS appearances, a long streak of playoffs, and being a true world series contender every year, we will call it a success. Hell, half our fan base and our owner is still letting KW live off 2005.
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  #27  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:37 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
It all comes down to a measure of internal ability now.

The Sox did a good job of getting a lot of quality young parts.

Now, can they get BIG, IMPACT FA to sign here, Can they make quality trades, and can they develop what is left in the minors.

I think we should have atleast 3 quality rotation pieces going forward in Gio-Cease and Kopech.

You would hope one of Dunning, Rodon, Hansen, Lopez can be an acceptable 5th SP.

But you have to sign that experienced ace veteran to lead the staff. It has to happen.

You like to think your IF is pretty much set now for the future, but Vaughn and Madrigal have to develop and Madrigal has to atleast hit for doubles power. Not saying they won't, it isn't done yet.

You like to think 2/3 of your OF is set, but Robert has not seen 1 big league pitch and Eloy hasn't been here long enough to say hes proven.

Collins has not caught one inning.

So I think you have frame work, you have tent poles. You are pouring the foundation, but it isn't set.

What the Cubs did a tremendous job is: Supplementing what they had with great trades and signings. Rizzo for Cashner, Russel for Shark (talking talent, Russel is a total POS human), Lester, Seeing something in Arrieta that they thought they could fix etc. Heyward was a huge overpay, but he also has provided a lot of leadership to those kids, played great D, and come up big at times when they needed him too.

The Sox have to do the same. This working is going to mean you HAVE to add one outside bat at a minimum and one big outside arm.

You could then that the failed SP prospects and RP specs we have can make up a quality young bullpen - Hansen, Burdi, Marshall, Lopez could be a really good big 4 in a pen.

And honestly, if we have the success the cubs did, A world series, a bunch of ALCS appearances, a long streak of playoffs, and being a true world series contender every year, we will call it a success. Hell, half our fan base and our owner is still letting KW live off 2005.
I don't know why your post prompted this thought on my part, but one thing that is striking about the Cubs rebuild is how EVERYTHING went right. Bryant and Rizzo were as good as advertised almost right away (although I think Rizzo had one down year). They found a diamond in the rough in Arrieta who they managed to turn into Bob Gibson for a few seasons. Javy Baez went from being a guy who could barely hit .200 and turned into an MVP candidate. They really haven't had any significant injuries, other than Schwarber tearing his ACL but he was still able to come back in time for the World Series.

Some of that is by design, but there's a lot of good luck involved too when it comes to injuries.

The immediate impact of pretty much all of the Cubs' key pieces is also what separated them from the Royals rebuild, where for a couple of years guys like Alex Gordon, Mike Moustakas and Lorenzo Cain kind of struggled in the majors and every guy who eventually wound up being a shut down piece in the bullpen got hurt when they were first called up and put in the Royals rotation.
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  #28  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:44 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I don't know why your post prompted this thought on my part, but one thing that is striking about the Cubs rebuild is how EVERYTHING went right. Bryant and Rizzo were as good as advertised almost right away (although I think Rizzo had one down year). They found a diamond in the rough in Arrieta who they managed to turn into Bob Gibson for a few seasons. Javy Baez went from being a guy who could barely hit .200 and turned into an MVP candidate. They really haven't had any significant injuries, other than Schwarber tearing his ACL but he was still able to come back in time for the World Series.

Some of that is by design, but there's a lot of good luck involved too when it comes to injuries.

The immediate impact of pretty much all of the Cubs' key pieces is also what separated them from the Royals rebuild, where for a couple of years guys like Alex Gordon, Mike Moustakas and Lorenzo Cain kind of struggled in the majors and every guy who eventually wound up being a shut down piece in the bullpen got hurt when they were first called up and put in the Royals rotation.
Theo has been on record saying they have been lucky, it was not supposed to work this fast.

But the one thing they did well, they built around offense and acquired pitching. Pitching is much much much more volatile. Guys can come from any round. Hitters success rate is much higher in the drafts. This was by design.
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  #29  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:47 PM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Theo has been on record saying they have been lucky, it was not supposed to work this fast.

But the one thing they did well, they built around offense and acquired pitching. Pitching is much much much more volatile. Guys can come from any round. Hitters success rate is much higher in the drafts. This was by design.
I agree and I like the strategy. The Sox are currently set up similarly - they will probably be able to construct a lineup completely out of home-grown players (though a FA addition or two would accelerate the process and provide some margin for error). What worries me is that the FA market for SP has dried up considerably, which means they might either have to overpay for Cole or have to settle for some second-tier options (Chris Archer, say).
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  #30  
Old 06-23-2019, 01:09 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Why all this comparisons stuff? Each rebuild is unique to an organization. Just execute your plan; forget the other teams.
Exactly.

I could care less about the Cubs, Astros or any other teams rebuilds, I just care about ours.



On another note, if Rodon and Kopech were not injured, I venture to say that we would be no worse than a Wild Card contender this year, if not for the damn Twins, we probably could win the Central Division. Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda.
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