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  #16  
Old 05-12-2018, 08:28 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by soxnut67
We're any of you guys around or paying attention in the late 80s or late 90s? It's the same thing, only a tad bit more extreme. And for that, I'm glad because it hopefully will mean and even longer competitive streak than those bore.
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Rebuilds have been a component of sports for a long time.
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  #17  
Old 05-12-2018, 09:08 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Well, you could go out and sign a bunch of free agents like the Yankees and Red Sox used to do.
Have you looked at the last few free agent crops? There's very little out there worth the investment. The trend now is to lock up the best players to long-term extensions before they ever hit free agency.
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  #18  
Old 05-12-2018, 09:18 AM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Have you looked at the last few free agent crops? There's very little out there worth the investment. The trend now is to lock up the best players to long-term extensions before they ever hit free agency.
Next year's free agent class 26-year-old Bryce Harper, 26-year-old Manny Machado. Teams can also likely get a a couple of productive years still out of a few other guys too.

I also think that after last year's off-season, players are going to be less likely to sign team friendly extensions that buy out a few of their free agent years.
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  #19  
Old 05-12-2018, 10:03 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Next year's free agent class 26-year-old Bryce Harper, 26-year-old Manny Machado.
Yes. But the team was going nowhere fast after 2015. Waiting for Harper and Machado wouldn't have been a successful strategy.
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  #20  
Old 05-12-2018, 10:05 AM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Yes. But the team was going nowhere fast after 2015. Waiting for Harper and Machado wouldn't have been a successful strategy.
Wait, are you talking about the White Sox specifically or a team in general? I'd suggest that for a team in general, they could avoid tanking by spending big on this year's free agent class. For the White Sox specifically, had they spent money on Cespedes or Fowler after 2015, that would have helped the team avoid tanking but, what's done is done.
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  #21  
Old 05-12-2018, 10:49 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Wait, are you talking about the White Sox specifically or a team in general? I'd suggest that for a team in general, they could avoid tanking by spending big on this year's free agent class. For the White Sox specifically, had they spent money on Cespedes or Fowler after 2015, that would have helped the team avoid tanking but, what's done is done.
I'm talking about the Sox. Homefish wrote "The anti-tanking crowd has no realistic answer on how to build a winner without tanking" and he was obviously referring to the Sox, because what's realistic for every team is different.

A Cespedes or Fowler signing would have been a waste. The Sox core was about 4-5 players. They had no margin for error. They would have had to sign 5-6 of the very best free agents and not miss on any of them to have a competitive team.

A future outfield drawn from Jimenez-Robert-Rutherford-Basabe-Adolfo-etc is likely to be at least as good as an outfield of Gordon-Fowler-Cespedes. And cheaper. And together longer.

Machado is a different story. He's younger and plays a position of need at a very high level. Hahn made it clear their plan includes going all in on Machado, and they should. Their chances of landing Machado are better precisely because they didn't tie up their cash in Fowler types. Their chances of landing both Machado and Harper are...unrealistic.

At the same time, they can't afford to put all their eggs in one basket. Think about Shields and Fulmer. They messed up the talent evaluations of both, but missing on Fulmer didn't cost them tens of millions of dollars and Tatis. As good as Machado is, what if he signs and then gets hurt? Only the Yankees and Dodgers of the world can afford to go buy another one.
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  #22  
Old 05-12-2018, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
I'm talking about the Sox. Homefish wrote "The anti-tanking crowd has no realistic answer on how to build a winner without tanking" and he was obviously referring to the Sox, because what's realistic for every team is different.

A Cespedes or Fowler signing would have been a waste. The Sox core was about 4-5 players. They had no margin for error. They would have had to sign 5-6 of the very best free agents and not miss on any of them to have a competitive team.

A future outfield drawn from Jimenez-Robert-Rutherford-Basabe-Adolfo-etc is likely to be at least as good as an outfield of Gordon-Fowler-Cespedes. And cheaper. And together longer.

Machado is a different story. He's younger and plays a position of need at a very high level. Hahn made it clear their plan includes going all in on Machado, and they should. Their chances of landing Machado are better precisely because they didn't tie up their cash in Fowler types. Their chances of landing both Machado and Harper are...unrealistic.

At the same time, they can't afford to put all their eggs in one basket. Think about Shields and Fulmer. They messed up the talent evaluations of both, but missing on Fulmer didn't cost them tens of millions of dollars and Tatis. As good as Machado is, what if he signs and then gets hurt? Only the Yankees and Dodgers of the world can afford to go buy another one.
Just wanted to post this because we haven't seen much about Tatis recently and the reason is that he's currently hitting .223 with an OPS of .743 with 0 BB and 50 K in 139 AB this season at AA.
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  #23  
Old 05-12-2018, 11:32 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Just wanted to post this because we haven't seen much about Tatis recently and the reason is that he's currently hitting .223 with an OPS of .743 with 0 BB and 50 K in 139 AB this season at AA.
Of course he also started last season very slowly and then went on a complete tear. He may be that type of player, we'll see as he gets more of a history.
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  #24  
Old 05-12-2018, 12:31 PM
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Of course he also started last season very slowly and then went on a complete tear. He may be that type of player, we'll see as he gets more of a history.
I agree and I don't wish him bad luck. For me that 50/0 K/BB rate does not bode well. Maybe he adjusts, but it's also possible he will never adapt to the improved pitchets as he goes up the ladder.

His OPS has gone up since his first stint in AA last year, but mostly it's due to his SLG rising. When he connects he's hitting the ball hard.
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  #25  
Old 05-12-2018, 02:21 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile
I agree and I don't wish him bad luck. For me that 50/0 K/BB rate does not bode well. Maybe he adjusts, but it's also possible he will never adapt to the improved pitchets as he goes up the ladder.

His OPS has gone up since his first stint in AA last year, but mostly it's due to his SLG rising. When he connects he's hitting the ball hard.
He also is a full five years younger than the Texas League average. He may have to repeat the level, but he’s still light-years ahead of most prospects his age.
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  #26  
Old 05-12-2018, 07:20 PM
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He also is a full five years younger than the Texas League average. He may have to repeat the level, but he’s still light-years ahead of most prospects his age.
Excellent point. We'll find out if he can catch up once he sees some more pitching.
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  #27  
Old 05-12-2018, 11:10 PM
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Yeah, Tatis is just a baby. Only turned 19 in January. He's way ahead of where the average player his age is, which accounts for him being a top 10 prospect.



Back to topic:


The belly-aching about tanking should stop in its tracks when the young guys start hitting the bigs en masse. Some will flop, but some (like Moncada) will be stars almost from the get go, with others (like Lopez) flashing star potential even as they adjust to the league. If Eloy hits .275 and cracks 35 homers next year while Moncada has a 30-30 season and Kopech and Lopez combine for 400+ strikeouts (to say nothing of what other young players may do; for example, does Yolmer cement himself as the best defensive 3B in the AL? Does Anderson continue to progress with his approach at the plate and jack even more home runs while walking more and cutting down on the strikeouts? Does one of Gio or Fulmer figure it out and become a competent major leaguer? Does Rodon stay healthy and turn into a bona fide #1/2?). The games are tough to watch now, but aside from the injuries (only 2 [Burdi, Burger] that are really serious), things are going according to plan.



The most top to bottom loaded farm systems of recent vintage have been the Cubs, Astros, Braves, Yankees, Dodgers, Phils, Jays, Sox and Pads. The first three are doing quite well as a result of their rebuild strategies. The Yankees were going to succeed anyway, but guys like Judge and Torres and Florial will allow them to maintain competitiveness even if they don't sign Harper/Machado. Same with LAD, although I'm sure they thought Seager and Urias would be all-stars this year back when their system was all the rage. Can't predict injuries. Still, they have Bellinger who's a stud and have made trades with other pieces and of course there's Buehler who looks like a future #1. That's what depth gets you. It's an insurance policy if nothing else. Phils are certainly back on track with several more youngsters in the pipeline. SD, Jays, and Sox are still question marks, obviously. But it seems that modern scouting whiffs far less than it did in the past, and teams that are not only top heavy but deep in the minors typically succeed. And other than the Yankees (and maybe LAD), the Sox are deeper than any of these teams ever were. Okay, Atlanta was deeper before the hammer came down, I guess.



All to say, this tanking thing has netted the Sox what will surely be a competitive and fun to watch team for a long time to come. It would be pretty close to unprecedented for that not to happen. This was the only way to build a White Sox Winner IMO, and it's hard to complain at this point. If in 5 years there are no playoff appearances and every one busts, then you can complain that this was the wrong track to take.
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  #28  
Old 05-13-2018, 04:57 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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All to say, this tanking thing has netted the Sox what will surely be a competitive and fun to watch team for a long time to come. It would be pretty close to unprecedented for that not to happen. This was the only way to build a White Sox Winner IMO, and it's hard to complain at this point. If in 5 years there are no playoff appearances and every one busts, then you can complain that this was the wrong track to take.

I'll stop complaining when the team plays fundamentally sound baseball and shows that it is disciplined.
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  #29  
Old 05-13-2018, 11:40 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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If in 5 years there are no playoff appearances and every one busts, then you can complain that this was the wrong track to take.
Even if it does bust it was the right move to take. I mean given the limitations by ownership and the front office staying status quo what else could be done?

And if it does blow up (and I've actually been thinking about this recently) what else can be done? What could they possibly do moving forward that they haven't already tried (all contingent of course on ownership staying the same...)
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  #30  
Old 05-14-2018, 12:40 PM
AZChiSoxFan AZChiSoxFan is offline
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Well, you could go out and sign a bunch of free agents like the Yankees and Red Sox used to do. Of course, that comes with some risks as well. You could also invest heavily in scouting and development so you can always have a relatively decent farm system like the Cardinals.
Yes! I don't like the Cards at all, but I have great respect for that organization. For the most part, they seem to shy away from high priced free agents, and yet, they seem to be in the mix for the postseason in most years. Kind of like the Sox were from 2000 - 2008.

Just to be clear, I'm speaking about this topic in more general terms. I'm not talking about what the Sox should or should not have done in this specific case.
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