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  #76  
Old 11-18-2019, 07:56 PM
doogiec doogiec is offline
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Default Vacated championship

It seems to me that vacating the championship, while maybe appropriate in this situation, causes such additional problems that is it potentially dangerous over the long run.

When the Sox won in 2005, it became permanent history. There was no belief that in a few years the title could be taken away. If we take away that finality, we cheapen the World Series. In addition the impossibility of weighing future violations creates a slippery slope for future issues. What if one player is using PED's, and has a major effect on the Series? How about 5 players? 10 players? I don't think any league or organization should look to the NCAA as guidance in dealing with misconduct.

If a team is cheating, catch it and deal with it in real time. But don't go back and try to "correct" history. It is what it is. The Astros won. We don't have to like it, but that's what happened.
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  #77  
Old 11-18-2019, 08:40 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Punish the organization and move on.
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  #78  
Old 11-18-2019, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Obviously, if there is a setup where one team knows what's going on in plain sight, having set it up with knowledge of its workings, and the other team has to figure out what is going on in plain sight, there really is no difference. It isn't as if the sign-stealing apparatus is covered while lineups are being exchanged and ground rules are being reviewed at home plate before the game. If you're playing poker with marked cards that everyone can see, only the players who know that the cards are marked and how the cards are marked have the advantage of knowing what the other players are holding.
You're assuming the camera was easy to see and not hidden or small or mixed in with other cameras that were used for other purposes and everyone knew the Astros were using this camera and no one said anything? Am I interpreting what you are saying correctly?
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  #79  
Old 11-18-2019, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
You're assuming the camera was easy to see and not hidden or small or mixed in with other cameras that were used for other purposes and everyone knew the Astros were using this camera and no one said anything? Am I interpreting what you are saying correctly?
My response made no assumptions. It addressed the premise that there was some sort of difference if a setup was visible to both teams. Unless the umpires go over its existence and what to look for, how to use it with both managers before the game, the team that facilitated its presence by using it is cheating to gain an advantage. If it's something that the home team had nothing to do with, the home team should immediately report it (out of honesty, out of concern that it could be used against them), and not doing so is dishonest.

Stealing signs by figuring out what the third-base coach's indicator is or figuring out from a lead at second base what a catcher is calling or what grip the pitcher has on the pitch he's going to throw is part of the game. Legend has it that in the 1989 NLCS Will Clark read Greg Maddux's lips saying "fastball, high inside" during a mound conference just before he hit a grand slam. Now it's common to see pitchers cover their faces with gloves during mound conferences. Stealing signs, reading lips within the game are possibilities the opposition knows to be taking safeguards against.

It isn't a question of both sides having the same opportunities to steal signs because MLB has a responsibility, an obligation to see that neither team has an opportunity to means outside of game play to steal signs.
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  #80  
Old 11-18-2019, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
My response made no assumptions. It addressed the premise that there was some sort of difference if a setup was visible to both teams. Unless the umpires go over its existence and what to look for, how to use it with both managers before the game, the team that facilitated its presence by using it is cheating to gain an advantage. If it's something that the home team had nothing to do with, the home team should immediately report it (out of honesty, out of concern that it could be used against them), and not doing so is dishonest.

Stealing signs by figuring out what the third-base coach's indicator is or figuring out from a lead at second base what a catcher is calling or what grip the pitcher has on the pitch he's going to throw is part of the game. Legend has it that in the 1989 NLCS Will Clark read Greg Maddux's lips saying "fastball, high inside" during a mound conference just before he hit a grand slam. Now it's common to see pitchers cover their faces with gloves during mound conferences. Stealing signs, reading lips within the game are possibilities the opposition knows to be taking safeguards against.

It isn't a question of both sides having the same opportunities to steal signs because MLB has a responsibility, an obligation to see that neither team has an opportunity to means outside of game play to steal signs.
Thank you for the explanation. I agree.
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  #81  
Old 11-27-2019, 03:48 PM
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https://www.sny.tv/yankees/news/the-...ndow/312018764

The evidence keeps piling up.
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  #82  
Old 01-10-2020, 03:47 PM
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https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/4427714...mpression=true
The hammer's about to come down hard. Funny how we're getting a scandal that could strip down a great team 100 years after the Black Sox scandal.
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  #83  
Old 01-13-2020, 02:09 PM
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Luhnow and Hinch both suspended for 2020 season without pay. Astros lose first round picks in 2020 and 2021 and fined $5M. Wow. That's a big hammer.
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  #84  
Old 01-13-2020, 02:12 PM
blurry blurry is offline
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https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/st...200976896?s=19

Lunhow and Hinch suspended for 1 year each
Loss of 1st and 2nd round draft picks in 2020 and 2021
$5M in fines

Slap on the wrist.
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  #85  
Old 01-13-2020, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Luhnow and Hinch both suspended for 2020 season without pay. Astros lose first round picks in 2020 and 2021 and fined $5M. Wow. That's a big hammer.
4 picks, $5M, and 2 guys suspended in return for a World Series title? Not even close to being a big hammer.
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  #86  
Old 01-13-2020, 02:16 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blurry View Post
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/st...200976896?s=19

Lunhow and Hinch suspended for 1 year each
Loss of 1st and 2nd round draft picks in 2020 and 2021
$5M in fines

Slap on the wrist.
1st and 2nd round picks are huge. This isn't just a slap on the wrist.

How are you getting to that?
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  #87  
Old 01-13-2020, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
1st and 2nd round picks are huge. This isn't just a slap on the wrist.

How are you getting to that?
Teams can win big even after losing multiple draft picks. Baseball's draft is the most crapshoot of all north american professional sports. At the very least Lunhow and Hinch should have gotten lifetime bans and that fine should have been easily quadrupled.
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  #88  
Old 01-13-2020, 02:18 PM
KRS1 KRS1 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blurry View Post
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/st...200976896?s=19

Lunhow and Hinch suspended for 1 year each
Loss of 1st and 2nd round draft picks in 2020 and 2021
$5M in fines

Slap on the wrist.
I don’t know, the draft picks are valuable and losing your GM and manager for an entire season is a huge pause for your franchise. It might not kill the team on the field, now, but it sure sets you back quite a bit. Have we seen a modern era manager suspended for a season before?
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  #89  
Old 01-13-2020, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blurry View Post
4 picks, $5M, and 2 guys suspended in return for a World Series title? Not even close to being a big hammer.
You are assuming the Astros would not have won the WS absent the conduct at issue. You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think MLB reached that conclusion.
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  #90  
Old 01-13-2020, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chez View Post
You are assuming the Astros would not have won the WS absent the conduct at issue. You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think MLB reached that conclusion.
They cheated during the 2017 postseason https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/statu...%2Fbaseball%2F

And you're right - MAYBE they would have still won the entire thing without cheating. Just like maybe Barry Bonds could hit 72 homeruns without taking steroids.
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