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  #46  
Old 11-07-2017, 06:52 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by kobo View Post
I don't understand why any of you want the Sox to give Avi a 3-4 year deal that will pay him more than he will make through arbitration. He had one good year and now you want to lock him up? That makes no sense at all. Let him go the arbitration route this year and prove next year that this year wasn't a fluke. I still don't believe he has turned a corner and I hope the organization thinks the same. There is no need or reason to offer him a deal at this point.
You offer him a deal that is long term/club friendly hoping that he has turned the corner. Basically the same thing they did for Sale, Quintana, Eaton and Anderson. Sets the players up for life, but also makes them attractive in the trade market if the team needs to go that route. It makes plenty of sense. Going to arbitration every year is tedious and can get really expensive if the player does not regress...
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  #47  
Old 11-07-2017, 09:02 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is online now
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
You offer him a deal that is long term/club friendly hoping that he has turned the corner. Basically the same thing they did for Sale, Quintana, Eaton and Anderson. Sets the players up for life, but also makes them attractive in the trade market if the team needs to go that route. It makes plenty of sense. Going to arbitration every year is tedious and can get really expensive if the player does not regress...
Yep. That was my thinking on why the Sox would do it.
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  #48  
Old 11-08-2017, 08:15 AM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
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It was announced yesterday that The South Side Community Art Center at 3831 S. Michigan Avenue was named a National Treasure. That building was once known as the Comiskey Mansion. It was the one time home of White Sox owner Charles Comiskey.
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  #49  
Old 11-08-2017, 05:42 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Even if Avi regresses, by the third year he should be a supporting player anyway if all these top prospects come through. Pencil in Jimenez, Robert, Rutherrford, you still have room at DH. If Sox are that good, they could afford to carry him even in a platoon scenerio. Of course you sign him if he's willing to do a reasonable deal. There's only so many hitters that can even fluke their way into a .330 hitter, as so many claim he did. His previous numbers are irrelevant. First couple years most guys woud have been in A+/AA. Then he suffered horrible injury that only his BEASTLY work ethic allowed him to come back at all. Next year, he was obviously still stiff and hobbled, this year he regained fluidity of movement and lit it up at the plate with easily apparent improvement in right and on the bases. He has developed into a good player due to his talent and incredible work ethic. I don't know how that is not apparent
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  #50  
Old 11-08-2017, 07:49 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Even if Avi regresses, by the third year he should be a supporting player anyway if all these top prospects come through. Pencil in Jimenez, Robert, Rutherrford, you still have room at DH.
How does anyone support while regressing?
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  #51  
Old 11-09-2017, 02:51 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is online now
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Here is a decent quick take on why the jury on Avi is still out.

http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/i-s...visail-garcia/
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  #52  
Old 11-09-2017, 03:05 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
You offer him a deal that is long term/club friendly hoping that he has turned the corner. Basically the same thing they did for Sale, Quintana, Eaton and Anderson. Sets the players up for life, but also makes them attractive in the trade market if the team needs to go that route. It makes plenty of sense. Going to arbitration every year is tedious and can get really expensive if the player does not regress...
The only outlier of those 4 is Anderson. The other 3 had somewhat of a positive track record before those extensions were offered. Avi is a player who has had a bad track record with his last year as an outlier. I'd rather be cautious with Avi for next year and go the arbitration route and have him prove himself before locking him up for 3-4 years.
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  #53  
Old 11-09-2017, 03:09 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Even if Avi regresses, by the third year he should be a supporting player anyway if all these top prospects come through. Pencil in Jimenez, Robert, Rutherrford, you still have room at DH. If Sox are that good, they could afford to carry him even in a platoon scenerio. Of course you sign him if he's willing to do a reasonable deal. There's only so many hitters that can even fluke their way into a .330 hitter, as so many claim he did. His previous numbers are irrelevant. First couple years most guys woud have been in A+/AA. Then he suffered horrible injury that only his BEASTLY work ethic allowed him to come back at all. Next year, he was obviously still stiff and hobbled, this year he regained fluidity of movement and lit it up at the plate with easily apparent improvement in right and on the bases. He has developed into a good player due to his talent and incredible work ethic. I don't know how that is not apparent
They most certainly are not. You can justify his ****ty production over his first few seasons all you want but that doesn't take away from the fact that he wasn't very good and has had one year where he produced. And the guy still can't hit for power and plays in a hitter's ballpark.
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  #54  
Old 11-09-2017, 03:30 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Here is a quote about Renteria I saw on ESPN's website which does a good job of summing up why we should be happy with him (I added the bold):

"Look, you have to want it, and define the manager's job as the maximal and optimal execution of the organization's plan instead of winning games, but: Rick Renteria. That dude has the Sox wanting it, competing even after they traded their world away, is bringing along a whole bunch of important players in unexpected and valuable ways. Tons of trust from the Latino players. More hands-on than maybe any other skipper in the league from an instruction standpoint."
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  #55  
Old 11-09-2017, 04:05 PM
Tragg Tragg is online now
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Hope Avi has a good year and trade him in July.
Prefer the Sox to be a more athletic team for the first time in ages.
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  #56  
Old 11-09-2017, 07:28 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
Here is a quote about Renteria I saw on ESPN's website which does a good job of summing up why we should be happy with him (I added the bold):

"Look, you have to want it, and define the manager's job as the maximal and optimal execution of the organization's plan instead of winning games, but: Rick Renteria. That dude has the Sox wanting it, competing even after they traded their world away, is bringing along a whole bunch of important players in unexpected and valuable ways. Tons of trust from the Latino players. More hands-on than maybe any other skipper in the league from an instruction standpoint."
Thanks, that's a nice write up. Looking for problems with Renteria is looking in all the wrong places.
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  #57  
Old 11-10-2017, 12:03 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Thanks, that's a nice write up. Looking for problems with Renteria is looking in all the wrong places.
That was something a non-WSI friend of mine kept saying about the 2017 team: they never gave up in the late innings. Completely different from the Ventura teams.
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  #58  
Old 11-10-2017, 01:28 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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I think the giving up has a lot to do with the personnel. Late last year the only player that didnt have huge incentives was abreu. All the rest of the players were either playing for a future spot on the roster, a starting position, or a contract, previous years were not like that.
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  #59  
Old 11-11-2017, 09:26 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Here is a decent quick take on why the jury on Avi is still out.

http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/i-s...visail-garcia/
Interesting article that left me with questions. Was his BABIP higher than what could be expected for someone batting .330? Are BABIPS higher in this era when high strike out totals aren't looked at as a liability? The article stated that Avi might be expected to have a higher BABIP than normal because he hits lots of ground balls. If that's true then consider me educated because I assumed that guys who hit hard line drives would have the higher total. That also gives a reason why a big strapping lad like Avi has modest home run totals. Hopefully last season won't be a mirage for Avi as his early returns in Detroit and with the Sox showed great promise. Perhaps TheVulture was correct, injuries set him back for several years. I'm hopeful but not convinced that this past season showed us the real Avi.
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  #60  
Old 11-11-2017, 11:38 AM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Here is a decent quick take on why the jury on Avi is still out.

http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/i-s...visail-garcia/
I think that to some degree the jury is still out on Avi too. You want to see more than one year from a guy particularly after several mediocre years. So I have no problem with the general conclusion.

However... I am going to have to disagree with a couple things said in the article.

One reason Avi hit better was that he was much better at laying off bad pitches. He still has plenty of room to improve but he improved enough to ensure that he ended up swinging at more strikes. His results improved accordingly.

Second, the guy says he became pull happy and that a shift would negate his effectiveness. This one is flat out wrong. One of the reason Avi hit so well was that he was taking outside pitches to RF. He looked like Konerko in his best years poking the outside pitch past the second baseman. Radical shift on Avi and he'll have a field day unless you do nothing but pitch inside.

Third, nothing in the article about the contribution Avi's exit velocity makes on his BABIP. Yes, he's a ground ball hitter and I do not expect to see his power numbers increase substantially until he changes that but he gets away with hitting so many ground balls because he hits them as hard as power hitters hit fly balls with the result that they get through the infield before the infielder can flag them down.

Avi's hitting last year was not just good luck. He made very real and noticeable improvements that lead to those better results. I still want to see that he can sustain those lessons learned but I believe he can and will as long as he stays focused on the field.
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