White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
And away we go...

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #151  
Old 11-21-2017, 11:24 AM
blurry blurry is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 43
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
It's the exact same logic out of Hahn that deemed Tatis expendable for Shields.
I know Hahn was GM when that occurred but that so smelled like a Kenny Williams trade...
Reply With Quote
  #152  
Old 11-21-2017, 11:24 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is online now
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 22,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
Why did you have to go and ruin things by making a rational post and explaining the finer points of the Rule 5 draft! It's much more fun to sit here and claim that Hahn is a moron who doesn't know how this draft and the 40-man roster works. If only he read WSI - at least he'd have a freaking clue!

Oh, and everything is about the Shields trade. Tatis Tatis Tatis!!!!!! We may as well call this rebuilt a failure now! Someday, there will be a status of Tatis somewhere. I'm not sure exactly where, perhaps right by Jeremy Reed's statue. I hope they save some space for Tito Polo's statue while they're at it.
Amen. Some people just want to be miserable. Must be exhausting.
__________________
Ridiculousness across all sports:

(1) "You have no valid opinion because you never played the game."
(2) "Stats are irrelevant. This guy just doesn't know how to win."
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old 11-21-2017, 02:05 PM
FielderJones's Avatar
FielderJones FielderJones is offline
WSI Village Atheist
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clarendon Hills
Posts: 5,715
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
Oh, and everything is about the Shields trade. Tatis Tatis Tatis!!!!!! We may as well call this rebuilt a failure now! Someday, there will be a status of Tatis somewhere. I'm not sure exactly where, perhaps right by Jeremy Reed's statue. I hope they save some space for Tito Polo's statue while they're at it.
I think rdivaldi has it right. The Tatis statue outside Petco Park will have a replica in the HOF, right next to the DLS plaque.
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old 11-21-2017, 05:25 PM
Tekijawa's Avatar
Tekijawa Tekijawa is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: North Mayfair/Chicago
Posts: 6,815
Default

Have we fired Gary Walker yet?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #155  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:09 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,938
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blurry View Post
I know Hahn was GM when that occurred but that so smelled like a Kenny Williams trade...
I somewhat agree.

I don't know if it was exactly a "Kenny overruling Rick" move, but when the Shields trade was made, the Sox were still in the go-for-broke mode they had been in for all of this decade until last year. Even with Hahn as GM, I believe that this organizational philosophy came from higher up. Maybe KW or perhaps from Reinsdorf himself. Perhaps the Shields trade itself was the straw that broke the camel's back and finally convinced Sox brass that their current approach simply wasn't working.

I know some fans still have an ax to grind for how this franchise was driven into a ditch. I don't blame them, really. But, this team has officially re-booted since then. To constantly harp on the Shields/Tatis trade is getting tiresome. I know Fernando Tatis is a bright-looking prospect, but you'd think he was already a shoe-in for the 2020 All-Star Game the way he is continually mourned around here.
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:28 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
Chief Skeptic and 2015 Preseason Predictions Contest Winner
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
I somewhat agree.

I don't know if it was exactly a "Kenny overruling Rick" move, but when the Shields trade was made, the Sox were still in the go-for-broke mode they had been in for all of this decade until last year. Even with Hahn as GM, I believe that this organizational philosophy came from higher up. Maybe KW or perhaps from Reinsdorf himself. Perhaps the Shields trade itself was the straw that broke the camel's back and finally convinced Sox brass that their current approach simply wasn't working.

I know some fans still have an ax to grind for how this franchise was driven into a ditch. I don't blame them, really. But, this team has officially re-booted since then. To constantly harp on the Shields/Tatis trade is getting tiresome. I know Fernando Tatis is a bright-looking prospect, but you'd think he was already a shoe-in for the 2020 All-Star Game the way he is continually mourned around here.
If losing Tatis was what it took to trigger the rebuild, I'd make that trade 10 times over.
Reply With Quote
  #157  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:03 PM
asindc asindc is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Washington, DC area
Posts: 8,380
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
I somewhat agree.

I don't know if it was exactly a "Kenny overruling Rick" move, but when the Shields trade was made, the Sox were still in the go-for-broke mode they had been in for all of this decade until last year. Even with Hahn as GM, I believe that this organizational philosophy came from higher up. Maybe KW or perhaps from Reinsdorf himself. Perhaps the Shields trade itself was the straw that broke the camel's back and finally convinced Sox brass that their current approach simply wasn't working.

I know some fans still have an ax to grind for how this franchise was driven into a ditch. I don't blame them, really. But, this team has officially re-booted since then. To constantly harp on the Shields/Tatis trade is getting tiresome. I know Fernando Tatis is a bright-looking prospect, but you'd think he was already a shoe-in for the 2020 All-Star Game the way he is continually mourned around here.
Donít you understand? 186 minor league games are all you need to identify a perennial All-Star and potential HOFer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
If losing Tatis was what it took to trigger the rebuild, I'd make that trade 10 times over.
On that point, I definitely agree.
__________________
"I have the ultimate respect for White Sox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Red Sox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country." Jim Caple, ESPN (January 12, 2011)


"We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the (bleeding) obvious is the first duty of intelligent men." ó George Orwell
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old 11-21-2017, 10:11 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,818
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
If losing Tatis was what it took to trigger the rebuild, I'd make that trade 10 times over.
Yes... the Shields trade was a bad one. On that I think we all agree. But it is done. Spilled milk and all that. And it does appear to have been the last call of the old way of doing things. If that failure was what triggered the new way of building a team then... Bye Bye Fernando! We hardly knew yee!
Reply With Quote
  #159  
Old 11-21-2017, 10:18 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,182
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blurry View Post
I know Hahn was GM when that occurred but that so smelled like a Kenny Williams trade...
Because you didn't like it? That seems to be what determines whether it was a "Kenny move" or not.
__________________
TWTW
Reply With Quote
  #160  
Old 11-21-2017, 10:27 PM
asindc asindc is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Washington, DC area
Posts: 8,380
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shingo10 View Post
Because you didn't like it? That seems to be what determines whether it was a "Kenny move" or not.
Reply With Quote
  #161  
Old 11-22-2017, 10:47 AM
blurry blurry is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 43
Default

Or it could be the fact a prospect was traded for an obviously past his prime veteran. Not saying the prospect would have (or will) turn into anything of significance, just the fact that it happened. I could be wrong but I can't think of other similar trades Hahn orchestrated. Kenny, on the other hand....
Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 11-22-2017, 03:24 PM
JB98's Avatar
JB98 JB98 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Crystal Lake, IL
Posts: 29,917
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shingo10 View Post
Because you didn't like it? That seems to be what determines whether it was a "Kenny move" or not.
Hahn really does have it made with this fan base. He receives credit for all the moves that we as fans generally like, and he receives no blame for any move that doesn't work out -- especially if it involves underperformance by a veteran player.

Jeff Keppinger, Adam LaRoche, James Shields, Justin Morneau, Jeff Samardzija, all players who were acquired by Sox GM Rick Hahn. But all are considered "Kenny moves."

Signing Jose Abreu, IIRC, actually was a "Kenny move." Williams went and scouted Abreu himself and recommended to JR that the Sox sign him. That was obviously a good decision, but Kenny receives no credit for that. We're too busy blaming him for James Shields.

That said, KW brings a lot of criticism on himself because of his demeanor. He's a generally unlikable fellow, but I don't know that I dislike him to the point that I need to hold him solely responsible for every bad decision Sox brass makes.
__________________
JB's attendance record:
2004: 14-5; 2005: 16-8; 2006: 19-10; 2007: 8-12; 2008: 15-7; 2009: 6-13; 2010: 12-11; 2011: 9-8; 2012: 11-7; 2013: 8-9; 2014: 7-9; 2015: 10-10; 2016: 13-10; 2017: 8-5; Total: 156-124.
Next game: April 2018

R
ead my baseball blog: http://thebaseballkid98.blogspot.com/

Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 11-22-2017, 05:33 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 19,061
Blog Entries: 1
Default

JB:

Your criticisms are fair. Hahnís veteran acquisitions were poor. In fairness, the farm system he inherited didnít leave much value to trade away to get back value, the teamís self-imposed budget meant that he often had to go dumpster diving, and free agency is usually not a great place to build a team. Still, itís not a great track record.

However, since making the decision to rebuild, Hahn has turned his assets into the MLBís best minor league system, and some of the players already were showing promise at the major league level. Thatís one year of encouraging work. Yes, any decent GM should be able to turn cost-controlled Sale, Quintana, and Eaton, into a plethora of top prospects. But it was no sure thing.

Now he has to:

- Make good decisions on when to promote top prospects through all levels of the system;

- Continue taking advantage of opportunities to acquire cheaply, once-promising prospects whose luster has faded, who still might develop into complimentary pieces;

- Come to decisions on the long-term future of Abreu and Avi;

- Draft well;

- Be in a position one year from now to fill anticipated holes on the 2019-2022+ roster by buying smart in the 2018-2019 free agent class, and convince ownership to sign the right player(s).

So the jury is still out.
__________________
The universe is the practical joke of the General at the expense of the Particular, quoth Frater Perdurabo, and laughed. The disciples nearest him wept, seeing the Universal Sorrow. Others laughed, seeing the Universal Joke. Others wept. Others laughed. Others wept because they couldn't see the Joke, and others laughed lest they should be thought not to see the Joke. But though FRATER laughed openly, he wept secretly; and really he neither laughed nor wept. Nor did he mean what he said.
Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 11-22-2017, 07:46 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 14,486
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Hahn really does have it made with this fan base. He receives credit for all the moves that we as fans generally like, and he receives no blame for any move that doesn't work out -- especially if it involves underperformance by a veteran player.

Jeff Keppinger, Adam LaRoche, James Shields, Justin Morneau, Jeff Samardzija, all players who were acquired by Sox GM Rick Hahn. But all are considered "Kenny moves."

Signing Jose Abreu, IIRC, actually was a "Kenny move." Williams went and scouted Abreu himself and recommended to JR that the Sox sign him. That was obviously a good decision, but Kenny receives no credit for that. We're too busy blaming him for James Shields.

That said, KW brings a lot of criticism on himself because of his demeanor. He's a generally unlikable fellow, but I don't know that I dislike him to the point that I need to hold him solely responsible for every bad decision Sox brass makes.

Great entire post.

I've been off the board for a week or so and nice to come back to see the consistency of White Sox nation and their annual off-season bashing of KW.

I'm going to welcome myself here

Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 11-23-2017, 11:53 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 31,494
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Hahn really does have it made with this fan base. He receives credit for all the moves that we as fans generally like, and he receives no blame for any move that doesn't work out -- especially if it involves underperformance by a veteran player.

Jeff Keppinger, Adam LaRoche, James Shields, Justin Morneau, Jeff Samardzija, all players who were acquired by Sox GM Rick Hahn. But all are considered "Kenny moves."

Signing Jose Abreu, IIRC, actually was a "Kenny move." Williams went and scouted Abreu himself and recommended to JR that the Sox sign him. That was obviously a good decision, but Kenny receives no credit for that. We're too busy blaming him for James Shields.

That said, KW brings a lot of criticism on himself because of his demeanor. He's a generally unlikable fellow, but I don't know that I dislike him to the point that I need to hold him solely responsible for every bad decision Sox brass makes.
Because of the uncertainty of exactly who was running the show back them there will ALWAYS be doubts about who was making the final call on trades. Kenny's ego remember won't allow him to take a back seat to anybody.

They very well could have been Hahn moves...but again, there's no way to know for sure.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:38 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.