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  #166  
Old 07-21-2017, 01:33 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Here is a good piece explaining exactly why we should not expect the Sox to get much of anything for Melky, if they can move him at all. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-l...artinez-trade/
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  #167  
Old 07-21-2017, 09:27 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Roarman View Post
Well you just mentioned 2 of the best current pitchers in the game over the last few years. Did they materialize out of thin air? Sale may have been ready to go very quickly but they still had to work with him on developing his pitches, especially his change up and slider. Teams were wary of his ability to hold up because of his mechanics and thought him long term to be a reliever, which is why in spite of his talent he fell to the White Sox after nearly half the league passed on him. But thanks to the incredible training staff and pitching development of the White Sox he's become the one of the best, and most durable, pitchers in the game.
I did forget about Santiago - you're right.
But 2/3 pitchers is not a staff. They had those 3 (Santiago turned into Eaton) and maxed out at 78 wins. There is nothing now in either AAA or on the major league team that the Sox have developed (the best were traded for). Fulmer and Rodon are Hahn draftees, but they aren't exactly effective. The current Sox starting staff is historically bad.
The Cubs haven't developed much either - but then again, the sign Lester and trade for Quintana - the Sox rent Samardzija for a year and trade for James Shields.

Last edited by Tragg; 07-21-2017 at 09:34 AM.
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  #168  
Old 07-21-2017, 10:04 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
I did forget about Santiago - you're right.
But 2/3 pitchers is not a staff. They had those 3 (Santiago turned into Eaton) and maxed out at 78 wins. There is nothing now in either AAA or on the major league team that the Sox have developed (the best were traded for). Fulmer and Rodon are Hahn draftees, but they aren't exactly effective. The current Sox starting staff is historically bad.
The Cubs haven't developed much either - but then again, the sign Lester and trade for Quintana - the Sox rent Samardzija for a year and trade for James Shields.
You're right, but there's also context. The Cubs shelled out huge money for Lester. That's something JR has never done, other than for Buehrle in 2007 and Danks in 2011. That's not Hahn'a fault. The Cubs could trade for Quintana because they had Jimenez and Cease. For what the Sox had to sell,
Samardzija and Shields were what they could buy.

Yes, Shields was a disaster, and that's a strike against Hahn.

I also think the Dioner Navarro disaster is on Hahn. I don't blame Hahn for Avila; the fact that he's resurgent in Detroit this year tells me he still had something in the tank. Avila/Flowers would have been a much better catching tandem.

I'm not a Hahn apologist. But he doesn't operate in a vacuum. We don't know the extent to which he may be hamstrung by major league scouts who he did not hire, and who KW/JR may not have given him the power to fire. Like any GM, he has made good moves and bad moves.
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  #169  
Old 07-21-2017, 05:53 PM
KenBerryGrab KenBerryGrab is offline
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The discipline of their last couple of drafts and the deft nature of the last three deals give me great hope. Hahn has earned the benefit of the doubt from me. For now, anyway.
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  #170  
Old 07-21-2017, 07:17 PM
Bob Roarman Bob Roarman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
I did forget about Santiago - you're right.
But 2/3 pitchers is not a staff. They had those 3 (Santiago turned into Eaton) and maxed out at 78 wins. There is nothing now in either AAA or on the major league team that the Sox have developed (the best were traded for). Fulmer and Rodon are Hahn draftees, but they aren't exactly effective. The current Sox starting staff is historically bad.
The Cubs haven't developed much either - but then again, the sign Lester and trade for Quintana - the Sox rent Samardzija for a year and trade for James Shields.
The current White Sox pitching staff is there to eat innings and that's about it. Same with their bullpen. Just get the ball up to the plate. Just get through the game. Try to hope for a quality start if you want to hope for anything. Its gonna be bad, that comes with the territory of a rebuild. And that's the way it's gonna be for the next year or two. We're ****ing half a season into the rebuild folks, this doesn't happen overnight.

But you can't ignore (or I guess you can) how, historically, at least over the 10-12 years, the White Sox have been among the best in developing pitching. I believe they're 2nd or 3rd in pitching WAR, maybe behind only the Dodgers and/or Yankees over that time span. They know what they're doing is what I'm saying. Better than most teams. And especially with guys that didn't have a high pedigree.
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  #171  
Old 07-21-2017, 07:59 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Lowe and Machi for warm bodies.
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  #172  
Old 07-21-2017, 08:06 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Where is Wilbur Wood when you need him?
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  #173  
Old 07-21-2017, 11:03 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Lowe and Machi for warm bodies.
"For" warm bodies or "are" warm bodies. Looks like some bullpen filler to keep from having to bring up kids from the farm. Now if we can find a starter that can go 6 innings....

Last edited by Andrew C White; 07-22-2017 at 09:38 AM.
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  #174  
Old 07-22-2017, 12:44 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Andrew C White View Post
"For" warm bodies or "are" warm bodies. Looks like some bullpen filler to keep from having to bring up kids from the farm. Now if we can find a start that can go 6 innings....
Both!
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  #175  
Old 07-22-2017, 10:55 AM
CoopaLoop CoopaLoop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Roarman View Post
The current White Sox pitching staff is there to eat innings and that's about it. Same with their bullpen. Just get the ball up to the plate. Just get through the game. Try to hope for a quality start if you want to hope for anything. Its gonna be bad, that comes with the territory of a rebuild. And that's the way it's gonna be for the next year or two. We're ****ing half a season into the rebuild folks, this doesn't happen overnight.

But you can't ignore (or I guess you can) how, historically, at least over the 10-12 years, the White Sox have been among the best in developing pitching. I believe they're 2nd or 3rd in pitching WAR, maybe behind only the Dodgers and/or Yankees over that time span. They know what they're doing is what I'm saying. Better than most teams. And especially with guys that didn't have a high pedigree.
John Danks pre injury, Matt Thornton Coop project. I don't know how anyone could argue against the Sox developing pitching.
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  #176  
Old 07-22-2017, 08:47 PM
Bob Roarman Bob Roarman is offline
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Gavin Floyd and Mark Buehrle are two other good examples. Bobby Jenks. Sergio Santos, who the Sox converted from a short stop to reliever over the course of one season (and was effective until multiple arm injuries and surgeries derailed his career) and Addison Reed. List goes on.
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  #177  
Old 07-23-2017, 03:41 AM
wxkid23 wxkid23 is offline
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If someone out there is a believer in Avi and willing to buy high, move him. His season is slowing, and the pace is starting to pick up. Davidson is in pretty much the same boat. These guys just aren't good ball players that are playing on a bad team.
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  #178  
Old 07-23-2017, 05:40 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by wxkid23 View Post
If someone out there is a believer in Avi and willing to buy high, move him. His season is slowing, and the pace is starting to pick up. Davidson is in pretty much the same boat. These guys just aren't good ball players that are playing on a bad team.
You would need a MLB ready player right now in return. Meaning some GM would really have to believe Avi is the real deal after a solid performance over fifty and some change percent of the season's worth of results.
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  #179  
Old 07-23-2017, 06:42 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
You would need a MLB ready player right now in return. Meaning some GM would really have to believe Avi is the real deal after a solid performance over fifty and some change percent of the season's worth of results.
Why would you need an MLB-ready player in return?
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  #180  
Old 07-23-2017, 07:40 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz
You would need a MLB ready player right now in return.
Why? The best possible return is the goal, and that probably wouldn't include MLB-ready talent.

If the concern is fielding a team for the rest of 2017, running a quadruple-A outfielder out there every day doesn't have anywhere near the same negative impact as running quadruple-A starting pitchers out there every day. Someone like Jacob May can have 3-for-30 stretches at the plate without the game itself grinding to a halt. On the other hand, the game won't end until the pitching staff records at least 27 outs at home and at least 24 outs on the road, which is making this team's games take closer to 4 hours than 3 hours.

I think that is another aspect of this whole situation that makes things subconsciously worse. At least all those low-scoring games that we were losing during the previous four years were neat and tidy 2.5-hour or 3-hour affairs.
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