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  #16  
Old 10-02-2018, 10:42 AM
hoosiersoxfan hoosiersoxfan is offline
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Originally Posted by I_Liked_Manuel View Post
They would have been in contention in this division with Sale, Quintana, Eaton, and a few bullpen arms. So when I see 100 losses and no significant progress being made in the minors, yes, this season was a disappointment. The whole concept that you need to be terrible in order to be good in the future is comical
That's what the team was before 2017 and they accomplished nothing
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  #17  
Old 10-02-2018, 10:44 AM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Suffered? Who suffered? I went to a bunch of games this year and enjoyed myself. "Can't beat fun at the 'ole ballpark" as we were told in the 70's.

I liked what I saw in the development of tomorrow's stars and I am looking forward to 2020 and beyond with greats optimism and excitement.

One thing I did learn during this season is that there are a dozen or so Debbie Downer WSIers and then there are the other Sox fans in world. The Debbie Downers are the ones who expected something great to happen this year. When I talk to non-WSI Sox fans, they are almost unanimous in their inability to contain their excitement for the 2020 and beyond. The people I've been talking to are my friends and people at the ballpark taking in the games.
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  #18  
Old 10-02-2018, 10:50 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by FielderJones View Post
The addition of Sale, Quintana, Eaton, and a few bullpen arms put this team in contention now that is comical.
Exactly. It is the same mindset that led to the Dunn years and the in-between bull**** that led to the rebuild.

Come on, folks. You've LITERALLY SEEN THIS BEFORE.
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  #19  
Old 10-02-2018, 10:52 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
Suffered? Who suffered? I went to a bunch of games this year and enjoyed myself. "Can't beat fun at the 'ole ballpark" as we were told in the 70's.

I liked what I saw in the development of tomorrow's stars and I am looking forward to 2020 and beyond with greats optimism and excitement.

One thing I did learn during this season is that there are a dozen or so Debbie Downer WSIers and then there are the other Sox fans in world. The Debbie Downers are the ones who expected something great to happen this year. When I talk to non-WSI Sox fans, they are almost unanimous in their inability to contain their excitement for the 2020 and beyond. The people I've been talking to are my friends and people at the ballpark taking in the games.
Yes, yes, yes. All this. We (including me) are giving way too much weight to the opinions of a very small group of people.
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  #20  
Old 10-02-2018, 10:56 AM
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FielderJones FielderJones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
Suffered? Who suffered? I went to a bunch of games this year and enjoyed myself. "Can't beat fun at the 'ole ballpark" as we were told in the 70's.





I went to more games this year than any other year save 1977. I got to see 8 Sox wins and went .500 for the season. I got to enjoy the development of Tim Anderson and the surprise of Daniel Palka. Was it as much fun as 1977 or 2005? No. But I didn't actually suffer.
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  #21  
Old 10-02-2018, 11:05 AM
kobo kobo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Liked_Manuel View Post
They would have been in contention in this division with Sale, Quintana, Eaton, and a few bullpen arms. So when I see 100 losses and no significant progress being made in the minors, yes, this season was a disappointment. The whole concept that you need to be terrible in order to be good in the future is comical
What does significant progress mean to you? Are you basing this progress based on past actions of the Organization where they would rush a prospect to placate the fanbase? Because if that is progress to you then prepare to be disappointed for another 3 years.
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  #22  
Old 10-02-2018, 11:10 AM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
Suffered? Who suffered? I went to a bunch of games this year and enjoyed myself. "Can't beat fun at the 'ole ballpark" as we were told in the 70's.
Exactly. I didn't suffer nor am I embarrassed that the team lost 100 games. They weren't supposed to be good, and they weren't. How one equates a feeling of embarrassment over something that they have no control over whatsoever is beyond me.
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  #23  
Old 10-02-2018, 11:25 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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How one equates a feeling of embarrassment over something that they have no control over whatsoever is beyond me.
I felt that way when I was younger, but not anymore.
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  #24  
Old 10-02-2018, 11:32 AM
chisoxjtrain chisoxjtrain is offline
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  #25  
Old 10-02-2018, 11:40 AM
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Chez Chez is offline
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Originally Posted by dumpjerry View Post
suffered? Who suffered? I went to a bunch of games this year and enjoyed myself. "can't beat fun at the 'ole ballpark" as we were told in the 70's.

I liked what i saw in the development of tomorrow's stars and i am looking forward to 2020 and beyond with greats optimism and excitement.

+1
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  #26  
Old 10-02-2018, 12:13 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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NO Sox fan "wanted" this because having to rebuild means by definition what you were doing before wasn't working.

But given the limitations both self-imposed and outside of their control by ownership and the front office this was the best they could do to try to change the fortunes of a franchise going nowhere fast and becoming more and more irrelevant in their own home market with each passing day.

Would I be happier if many of the keys to the rebuild weren't dropping like flies? Yes...

Would I be happier if the rebuild was being steered by a front office with a solid record of success? Yes...

But as Kenny would say, "it is what it is..." Nothing I can do about it, just hope it all works out in the end. (Or at least my VHS and DVD machines don't break down so I can still actually watch baseball when the Sox were a good major league team...)
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  #27  
Old 10-02-2018, 01:16 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by FielderJones View Post
The addition of Sale, Quintana, Eaton, and a few bullpen arms put this team in contention now that is comical. This team maybe moves up to 75 wins, mired in mediocrity, which as HomeFish points out, is not rewarded by MLB.

The Sox have the go-for-it-every-year approach since the turn of the millennium, and it's gotten them two divisional championships and one World Series championship in 16 years. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Exactly. It is the same mindset that led to the Dunn years and the in-between bull**** that led to the rebuild.

Come on, folks. You've LITERALLY SEEN THIS BEFORE.

BINGO.



....and if we stuck with trying to win around Sale, Q, and Eaton, if history is any indicator, right now we'd be wrapping up yet another 79 win season......with Sale's free agency coming up after one more year.
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  #28  
Old 10-02-2018, 01:21 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Yes, yes, yes. All this. We (including me) are giving way too much weight to the opinions of a very small group of people.
All opinions matter. Even those not thrilled by the rebuild.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Liked_Manuel View Post
They would have been in contention in this division with Sale, Quintana, Eaton, and a few bullpen arms. So when I see 100 losses and no significant progress being made in the minors, yes, this season was a disappointment. The whole concept that you need to be terrible in order to be good in the future is comical
I'm not here to bash you or tell you that your opinion doesn't matter. The Sox are a hot mess now and fans have a right to their frustrations. However, even with Sale, Eaton and Quintana the Sox probably wouldn't be more than a .500 team. If even that. Sale and Eaton have shown signs of fragility, and Quintana although still valuable has probably peaked. Unfortunately if you sign on for a rebuild you're going to be lousy, maybe even awful for a while. So here we are. I'd say early returns are more than a bit disappointing and the luck factor has been abysmal. My hopes for next year are that Anderson and Lopez continue an upward trajectory. That at least one guy on the farm comes up and does real well, either a pitcher or a position player will do. I'm very tired of hearing that it takes 1000, 2000, 3000 pick your number of at bats to prove yourself. I don't think Giolito or Fulmer are going to cut it, and my faith in Moncada and Rodon is fading fast. That wasn't a September correction based on peripherals by Rodon, that was falling off a cliff. Lastly start hitting it reliably in the draft. Next year is crucial.
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  #29  
Old 10-02-2018, 01:30 PM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Liked_Manuel View Post
They would have been in contention in this division with Sale, Quintana, Eaton, and a few bullpen arms. So when I see 100 losses and no significant progress being made in the minors, yes, this season was a disappointment. The whole concept that you need to be terrible in order to be good in the future is comical
Well, we know what username Kenny Williams uses on WSI.
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  #30  
Old 10-02-2018, 01:33 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
The injuries are concerning, and slow progress for certain prospects is a little moreso. But we've gotten some pretty good talent drafting third in the past, and next draft shouldn't be any different.

The injuries could have been expected statistically if you look at baseball as a whole, especially when you look at pitching. The farther away a prospect is from the majors, the greater his chance of not fulfilling his promise, and injuries are a big part of that.

The premise that you can trade players for prospects that will develop in a straight line to success, if not stardom, is flawed. For all the No. 1 prospects that achieve stardom, there are plenty of "future stars" that you wouldn't want to give up much for in trade if you had the advantage of historical hindsight. The bad mojo of White Sox player development doesn't come into play. Addison Russell was a No. 1 prospect when the Cubs traded for him, and he isn't a factor with the Cubs. Jurickson Profar was consensus No. 1 before the 2013 season and hasn't figured it out through 2018.

Byron Buxton, was No. 1 before Moncada. Buxton looked like he had figured it out in 2017 after a rough start. He even found his way on a couple of MVP ballots at season's end. In 2018, he seemed an automatic out until he got hurt in May. After his rehab stint, the Twins left him in the minors. Some speculate he's still hurt. Some speculate it's to postpone his eligibility for free agency.
Of course, if you make bad trades, if you don't care about winning, you get better draft picks. Pick players who appear to be future stars. Carson Fulmer was considered by scouts to be closer to major league success than any other pitcher in the draft. But you don't have to be the White Sox to pick badly. During their rebuild, the Astros with the first overall selection picked a pitcher who is out of baseball never having made it to the majors.

The scorched-earth rebuild model isn't so much a plan as it is buying time for an organization. Get rid of the assets. Cut the payroll. No one expects the team to win, and the reward for losing is more high draft picks.
The reality is that if a few players distinguish themselves, as one would expect statistically, you may not be better off than you were before you traded the few players who had distinguished themselves before they brought back prospects in trade. Then, as the shampoo bottle advises, it's rinse and repeat.

I was upset when the White Sox traded Sale because they got so little in return. (If it turns out the White Sox got more for Quintana, who was struggling at the end with the Sox, than Sale, that sort of reinforces my belief.) I believed the White Sox would be better off trying to build a winning team around what they had, a concept that I think is less delusional than belief in the current rebuild model. Cleveland isn't so good that the rest of the division shouldn't be giving up. (Maybe the Twins would have been there with them if they had gotten the kind of year they expected out of Buxton.)

Hahn's trade for Shield might counter my argument, but it doesn't help the argument of those who trust he knows what he is doing.

I keep hoping Hahn gets lucky while the rest of baseball continues to get bad. But that's a far different feeling than confidence.
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