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  #31  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:00 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Fandom is not logical. I cannot tell you how many times I wish I could just stop caring about all sports but, it sucks me back in.

I will also say, while I'm not distraught with the moves that haven't been made this far this offseason, I get why fans ARE upset. I think this front office has lost the benefit of the doubt about its ability/willingness to pull off the kind of moves required to win.
All well-taken points.
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  #32  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
I just like baseball too much to stop caring, and I don't have the ability to just pick a new team. But its painful, and I honestly don't know that I would fault my son if he picked the Cubs over the Sox. Just year after year of losing and missing out, then the BS from the front office is exhausting. And I am a big Rick Hahn supporter.
Even Cub fans tell me that would be a bad choice these days. Cub fans tell me they have no idea where the team is going. They are in a serious decline right now. No pitching. No experience in the Manager's spot (I have yet to hear any of my numerous Cub fan friends say they are excited about Ross), trying to sell off the core, pissing off Rizzo, the list continues.

Cub fans have been looking at our current roster and the AAA guys who will be with us in 2020 and beyond and are very envious. Some of them have even, gasp, crossed The Divide and will be on the South Side this coming year. We have:
1. The reigning MLB (not just AL) Batting Champ.
2. The reigning AL RBI Champ (only RBIs behind the MLB leader
3. A pitcher who was 6th in WAR among AL hurlers, third in stirkeouts per 9 innings in the AL , led the AL in fewest walks last year, etc. etc. (his name is Giolito, in case you forgot)
4. A Third baseman who has played very, very well there in his first full time season at the position.
5. A natural slugger (Jimenez)
6. Not one, but two All-Star Catchers from last year's ASG
7. An up and coming Second Baseman who simply does not strike out.
8. A probable five tool CFer.

This is just a summary.
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  #33  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:05 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
Even Cub fans tell me that would be a bad choice these days. Cub fans tell me they have no idea where the team is going. They are in a serious decline right now. No pitching. No experience in the Manager's spot (I have yet to hear any of my numerous Cub fan friends say they are excited about Ross), trying to sell off the core, pissing off Rizzo, the list continues.

Cub fans have been looking at our current roster and the AAA guys who will be with us in 2020 and beyond and are very envious. Some of them have even, gasp, crossed The Divide and will be on the South Side this coming year. We have:
1. The reigning MLB (not just AL) Batting Champ.
2. The reigning AL RBI Champ (only RBIs behind the MLB leader
3. A pitcher who was 6th in WAR among AL hurlers, third in stirkeouts per 9 innings in the AL , led the AL in fewest walks last year, etc. etc. (his name is Giolito, in case you forgot)
4. A Third baseman who has played very, very well there in his first full time season at the position.
5. A natural slugger (Jimenez)
6. Not one, but two All-Star Catchers from last year's ASG
7. An up and coming Second Baseman who simply does not strike out.
8. A probable five tool CFer.

This is just a summary.
I donít remember anyone denying that we have about half the makings of a really good team. Weíre just asking where the hell the other half is and how long it will take to get.
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  #34  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:17 PM
JohnTucker0814 JohnTucker0814 is offline
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I donít remember anyone denying that we have about half the makings of a really good team. Weíre just asking where the hell the other half is and how long it will take to get.
That's ridiculous. We are well more than 1/2 way to a winning team. We need about 2 pieces to be a legitimate contender. And.. if Kopech and Cease turn out like they are projected, the Sox, in theory have their top of the rotation guys. Yes, it would be nice to have a veteran there instead of doing it like the 2015 Mets where all their pitchers were young guys.

With the addition of Madrigal, Vaughn, Robert to this line-up we are just fine on offense. It would be nice to get another solid DH/RF type for this year. It would be nice to get a veteran pitcher for this team.

But this is still a business and if your coaches all see huge flaws in the free agent pitchers remaining and you KNOW they are not going to be worth $20/M per year, why would you sign them, just to make a portion of your fan base happy? That's stupid.

Are you saying you want to trot out Keuchel game 1 of a wild card playoff game? No, I'd still send Giolito out there. I would have sent Giolito out there before Wheeler. The only 2 pitchers that were #1 game playoff pitchers were Cole / Stras.
  #35  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:22 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnTucker0814 View Post
That's ridiculous. We are well more than 1/2 way to a winning team. We need about 2 pieces to be a legitimate contender. And.. if Kopech and Cease turn out like they are projected, the Sox, in theory have their top of the rotation guys. Yes, it would be nice to have a veteran there instead of doing it like the 2015 Mets where all their pitchers were young guys.

With the addition of Madrigal, Vaughn, Robert to this line-up we are just fine on offense. It would be nice to get another solid DH/RF type for this year. It would be nice to get a veteran pitcher for this team.

But this is still a business and if your coaches all see huge flaws in the free agent pitchers remaining and you KNOW they are not going to be worth $20/M per year, why would you sign them, just to make a portion of your fan base happy? That's stupid.

Are you saying you want to trot out Keuchel game 1 of a wild card playoff game? No, I'd still send Giolito out there. I would have sent Giolito out there before Wheeler. The only 2 pitchers that were #1 game playoff pitchers were Cole / Stras.
Thats if everything goes right. This sounds like the Bears in the offseason in so many ways, we are fine, don't need anything but a kicker, another year of development and no one can stop this train.....

Then some guys regressed
Others got hurt
Some did not take the next step


What happens if Eloy has another year like last year and still struggles laying off the slider down and away? What happens if Anderson's lack of patience puts his average back around .275? Or if Madrigal never finds any power and is a .650 OPS guy, or Robert doesn't work out etc.

Every single team that has won it all mixed veterans with home grown talent. Why we as fans think we will be the exception to this rule is beyond me.
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  #36  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:35 PM
DaveIsHere DaveIsHere is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Thats if everything goes right. This sounds like the Bears in the offseason in so many ways, we are fine, don't need anything but a kicker, another year of development and no one can stop this train.....

Then some guys regressed
Others got hurt
Some did not take the next step


What happens if Eloy has another year like last year and still struggles laying off the slider down and away? What happens if Anderson's lack of patience puts his average back around .275? Or if Madrigal never finds any power and is a .650 OPS guy, or Robert doesn't work out etc.

Every single team that has won it all mixed veterans with home grown talent. Why we as fans think we will be the exception to this rule is beyond me.

What if your 300 million investment front line started gets hurt? Its all a crap shoot. If they want to build what we have from within and use the money to extend those guys along the way that is fine., The risk is some regress, some never develop, etc etc. Same can be said with a proven player, you just never know. Everything is a risk and everyone thinks they are right......Have to love the baseball off-season
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  #37  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:46 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Thats if everything goes right. This sounds like the Bears in the offseason in so many ways, we are fine, don't need anything but a kicker, another year of development and no one can stop this train.....

Then some guys regressed
Others got hurt
Some did not take the next step


What happens if Eloy has another year like last year and still struggles laying off the slider down and away? What happens if Anderson's lack of patience puts his average back around .275? Or if Madrigal never finds any power and is a .650 OPS guy, or Robert doesn't work out etc.

Every single team that has won it all mixed veterans with home grown talent. Why we as fans think we will be the exception to this rule is beyond me.
How does this sound like the Bears in the offseason? The best O Line guy they had was on his last legs, the QB sucked. Yeah, the Defense was gold-plated (and has pretty much lived up to its expectations), but everything said the Offense was an old Chevy that needed to be taken to the Levee....
  #38  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:54 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
How does this sound like the Bears in the offseason? The best O Line guy they had was on his last legs, the QB sucked. Yeah, the Defense was gold-plated (and has pretty much lived up to its expectations), but everything said the Offense was an old Chevy that needed to be taken to the Levee....
What town do you live in? The hype of the bears all offseason was literally Super Bowl and Mitch is going to take off etc.

My point is, we have a good makeup right now, but we have a ton of holes and we arenít filling them all within. If the end of this rebuild is another once in a while playoff team that is usually around 85 wins, what was the point? We keep shopping the bargain bins hoping to find a steal, and it never seems to work out. We canít take a step forward by sticking with what we had. If we just end up with another Nova like starter, weíre going to end up with similar results.

Just once Iíd like the Sox to do something that says ďhere we go, things haven changed, these guys are ready to winĒ. 1.5 offseasons in a row, the resources were there to do that and the results have not been. Still half an offseason left to see how it comes together, but this isnít a contender as constructed.
  #39  
Old 12-12-2019, 11:52 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
What happens if Eloy has another year like last year and still struggles laying off the slider down and away?
Eloy Jimenez splits:
1st Half: .241/.303/.482, 28.7 K%
2nd Half: .290/.335/.557 24.5 K%

You can stop worrying now...

Quote:
What happens if Anderson's lack of patience puts his average back around .275? Or if Madrigal never finds any power and is a .650 OPS guy, or Robert doesn't work out etc.
Nice strawmen....
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  #40  
Old 12-12-2019, 11:56 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Eloy Jimenez splits:
1st Half: .241/.303/.482, 28.7 K%
2nd Half: .290/.335/.557 24.5 K%

You can stop worrying now...



Nice strawmen....
I love Eloy's potential with the bat, but ALL of those splits, the damage was done in September and October against a lot of tired and AAAA arms.

Sorry that I wan't to see him prove he can sustain that.

Everyone is just banking on all these kids panning out to their ceilings, and you more than anyone who follows the minors should know the likelyhood of that happening is slim to none.
  #41  
Old 12-13-2019, 12:20 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
I love Eloy's potential with the bat, but ALL of those splits, the damage was done in September and October against a lot of tired and AAAA arms.
Yes, those home runs against scrubs like Mike Clevinger and Carlos Carrasco should be thrown out. I wonder what kind of pitches Eloy hit off those guys, had to have been weak 4 seamers down the middle.

Carrasco, Carlos - Opposing Pitcher
101.6 - Exit Velo
Opposite Field
84.2 Slider - Pitch speed/type

Clevinger, Mike - Opposing Pitcher
108.1 - Exit Velo
Straightaway Center
80.8 Slider - Pitch speed/type

Quote:
Everyone is just banking on all these kids panning out to their ceilings, and you more than anyone who follows the minors should know the likelyhood of that happening is slim to none.
Well, Luis Robert can only be stopped by injuries, he's the best hitter to go through the White Sox farm system in the past decade+. Madrigal is not a sure thing, but he breezed through the system to Charlotte in a season and a a half with no hiccups, so that's at least encouraging.

But posing Tim Anderson as some sort of regression risk made me think. Although batting average is a "meh" stat to me, I wondered what players have led the American League batting average leaders of the past 25 years.

1995 - Paul O'Neill 0.359
1996 - Alex Rodriguez 0.358
1997 - Frank Thomas 0.347
1998 - Bernie Williams 0.339
1999 - Nomar Garciaparra 0.357
2000 - Nomar Garciaparra 0.372
2001 - Ichiro Suzuki 0.350
2002 - Manny Ramirez 0.349
2003 - Bill Mueller 0.326
2004 - Ichiro Suzuki 0.372
2005 - Michael Young 0.331
2006 - Joe Mauer 0.347
2007 - Magglio Ordonez 0.363
2008 - Joe Mauer 0.328
2009 - Joe Mauer 0.365
2010 - Josh Hamilton 0.359
2011 - Miguel Cabrera 0.344
2012 - Miguel Cabrera 0.330
2013 - Miguel Cabrera 0.348
2014 - Jose Altuve 0.341
2015 - Miguel Cabrera 0.338
2016 - Jose Altuve 0.338
2017 - Jose Altuve 0.346
2018 - Mookie Betts 0.346
2019 - Tim Anderson 0.335

I think you can stop worrying....
  #42  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:09 AM
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TA is probably due for some regression given his high BABIP from 2019. But he hit the ball hard and struck out less to go along with his high average. FG had a nice piece on him and the only thing they were a little concerned about was his low walk rate, which is fair.

Frankly I'm more concerned about his defense but I think he'll improve on that front. By all accounts he's a very hard worker.
  #43  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:01 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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TA is probably due for some regression given his high BABIP from 2019. But he hit the ball hard and struck out less to go along with his high average. FG had a nice piece on him and the only thing they were a little concerned about was his low walk rate, which is fair.

Frankly I'm more concerned about his defense but I think he'll improve on that front. By all accounts he's a very hard worker.
That is where I get worried too. I Love Anderson, I really do. But a 2.9% walk rate (2nd lowest in all of baseball) and a BABIP over .400 really make me nervous that we could see some regression. It wasn't like he went from a .280 hitter to over .330, he hit almost .100 points higher. He has a rare skillset for sure, and maybe he can sustain it, some players just beat the numbers.

I am not saying in any of this that I don't think an Infield of Moncada Anderson Madrigal and Vaughn in a couple years can't be sensational, but what I am saying is all 4 of them do come with their own question marks right now.
  #44  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:23 AM
asindc asindc is offline
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That is where I get worried too. I Love Anderson, I really do. But a 2.9% walk rate (2nd lowest in all of baseball) and a BABIP over .400 really make me nervous that we could see some regression. It wasn't like he went from a .280 hitter to over .330, he hit almost .100 points higher. He has a rare skillset for sure, and maybe he can sustain it, some players just beat the numbers.

I am not saying in any of this that I don't think an Infield of Moncada Anderson Madrigal and Vaughn in a couple years can't be sensational, but what I am saying is all 4 of them do come with their own question marks right now.
Thatís true for all but the elite players.
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  #45  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:35 AM
JohnTucker0814 JohnTucker0814 is offline
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That is where I get worried too. I Love Anderson, I really do. But a 2.9% walk rate (2nd lowest in all of baseball) and a BABIP over .400 really make me nervous that we could see some regression. It wasn't like he went from a .280 hitter to over .330, he hit almost .100 points higher. He has a rare skillset for sure, and maybe he can sustain it, some players just beat the numbers.

I am not saying in any of this that I don't think an Infield of Moncada Anderson Madrigal and Vaughn in a couple years can't be sensational, but what I am saying is all 4 of them do come with their own question marks right now.
The only non question mark player in the majors is Mike Trout. EVERYONE else has question marks to their game, even Rendon.

The difference with the guys the White Sox have is they aren't like the past White Sox prospects. Those of us that have seen the "great" prospects come up for the Sox, then they end up not being great and failing... we've never seen the pedigree of Robert, Moncada, Vaughn in our system since Frank Thomas and Robin Ventura.
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