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  #61  
Old 10-23-2019, 11:13 PM
RadioheadRocks RadioheadRocks is offline
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Originally Posted by SOXSINCE'70 View Post
Theo and Jed learned NOTHING from the Robin Ventura experience. While Ross inherits a much better roster than Ventura had in his four of his five seasons, we'll see.
Truth be told, if that's how it plays out they wouldn't be stupid enough to hang on to him for five mother****ing years.
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  #62  
Old 10-24-2019, 08:49 AM
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I believe hiring David Ross will backfire on the Cubs. On the other hand, Yankees fans seem happy with Cashman's decision to hire Aaron Boone -- a guy with no previous managerial or coaching experience.
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  #63  
Old 10-24-2019, 10:37 AM
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I believe hiring David Ross will backfire on the Cubs. On the other hand, Yankees fans seem happy with Cashman's decision to hire Aaron Boone -- a guy with no previous managerial or coaching experience.
First of all, the Yankees and Cubs are/were in much different shape when their new manager took over. The Cubs have some key issues which I doubt Ross or any manager will be able to fix. Regardless, the Cubs are in their "winning window" for the next couple years and if I was in charge, I would be going after a seasoned manager/coach. Now is not the time for them to be developing a trainee.
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  #64  
Old 10-24-2019, 11:57 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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That Kris Bryant service time manipulation hearing is happening this week in front of an arbitrator. Bryant is looking to have a year of team control removed (meaning he would be a free agent after next season).


If he wins, it's going to lead to a lot of other cases, but it's also important to note that contractual arbitration is only the first step. The NLRB would be next if Bryant were to lose this arbitration.
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  #65  
Old 10-24-2019, 12:00 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Ill throw this out once again, until I know what the responsibilities of a manager are except dealing with the media, I dont think it matters who the manager is. The coaching staff is what is important.
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  #66  
Old 10-24-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
That Kris Bryant service time manipulation hearing is happening this week in front of an arbitrator. Bryant is looking to have a year of team control removed (meaning he would be a free agent after next season).


If he wins, it's going to lead to a lot of other cases, but it's also important to note that contractual arbitration is only the first step. The NLRB would be next if Bryant were to lose this arbitration.
He is going to lose at every level. He has to prove that he wasn't promoted solely because of financial reasons. In other words, even if he can provide evidence (not likely at all) that the Cubs were financially motivated to not promote earlier than they did, if the Cubs can plausibly point to baseball reasons then Bryant's case falls apart. Besides, I seriously doubt that either the arbitrator or NLRB will be willing to make such a dramatic industry-altering decision so close to the end of the current CBA.
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  #67  
Old 10-24-2019, 01:48 PM
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He is going to lose at every level. He has to prove that he wasn't promoted solely because of financial reasons. In other words, even if he can provide evidence (not likely at all) that the Cubs were financially motivated to not promote earlier than they did, if the Cubs can plausibly point to baseball reasons then Bryant's case falls apart. Besides, I seriously doubt that either the arbitrator or NLRB will be willing to make such a dramatic industry-altering decision so close to the end of the current CBA.
Free agency was created by an arbitrator. Curt Flood sued baseball seeking to abolish the reserve clause and lost in the U.S. Supreme Court. Players went on strike at the beginning of the 1972 season but ended up with only a few working condition concessions and an increase in the pension. A year later, the owners granted the players arbitration. It was in 1975 when Andy Messersmith and Dave McNally were granted free agency through arbitration, an authority not explicitly created in the process, that the reserve clause fell and rules for free agency were set up.

If the Bryant case is going to arbitration, with Bryant having an opportunity to appeal, I wouldn't assume Bryant is going to lose at every level. The fact that the Cubs let the case go this far puts them in an no-win situation of knocking down a player they have been promoting.

Generally when things go this far, the players get traded. This is a big deal.
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  #68  
Old 10-24-2019, 02:22 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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He is going to lose at every level. He has to prove that he wasn't promoted solely because of financial reasons. In other words, even if he can provide evidence (not likely at all) that the Cubs were financially motivated to not promote earlier than they did, if the Cubs can plausibly point to baseball reasons then Bryant's case falls apart. Besides, I seriously doubt that either the arbitrator or NLRB will be willing to make such a dramatic industry-altering decision so close to the end of the current CBA.

The players association has been working on this case for years. I don't think this is going to go the way a lot of you assume.
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  #69  
Old 10-24-2019, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Free agency was created by an arbitrator. Curt Flood sued baseball seeking to abolish the reserve clause and lost in the U.S. Supreme Court. Players went on strike at the beginning of the 1972 season but ended up with only a few working condition concessions and an increase in the pension. A year later, the owners granted the players arbitration. It was in 1975 when Andy Messersmith and Dave McNally were granted free agency through arbitration, an authority not explicitly created in the process, that the reserve clause fell and rules for free agency were set up.

If the Bryant case is going to arbitration, with Bryant having an opportunity to appeal, I wouldn't assume Bryant is going to lose at every level. The fact that the Cubs let the case go this far puts them in an no-win situation of knocking down a player they have been promoting.

Generally when things go this far, the players get traded. This is a big deal.
I’m aware of arbitrators’ role in establishing the current free agency rules. However, evidence of unfair labor practices were more compelling in the 60s and 70s than they are today. The issue of a player’s job opportunities were/are different than the issue of a player’s promotion potential. The latter requires a more subjective evaluation of the player’s skills and ability, as well as an evaluation of how the industry as a whole manages player promotion.
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  #70  
Old 10-24-2019, 03:19 PM
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First of all, the Yankees and Cubs are/were in much different shape when their new manager took over. The Cubs have some key issues which I doubt Ross or any manager will be able to fix. Regardless, the Cubs are in their "winning window" for the next couple years and if I was in charge, I would be going after a seasoned manager/coach. Now is not the time for them to be developing a trainee.
Not sure I understand your post. The Yankees always seem to be in a "winning window" -- and were at the time they hired Aaron Boone.
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  #71  
Old 10-24-2019, 03:24 PM
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The players association has been working on this case for years. I don't think this is going to go the way a lot of you assume.
Is there anything in the current CBA which sets guidelines or criteria for when a player should be promoted? I don't know; but I doubt it. If the decision to promote a player is wholly within the subjective discretion of the team (as it should be IMO -- unless the decision is based on race, national origin, religion etc.), then I'm not sure where Bryant is going with this grievance.
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  #72  
Old 10-24-2019, 04:47 PM
JohnTucker0814 JohnTucker0814 is offline
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Is there anything in the current CBA which sets guidelines or criteria for when a player should be promoted? I don't know; but I doubt it. If the decision to promote a player is wholly within the subjective discretion of the team (as it should be IMO -- unless the decision is based on race, national origin, religion etc.), then I'm not sure where Bryant is going with this grievance.
I think if a player is brought up a day or two AFTER their time clock expired, then there is probably justification of intent by the team. If the team waiting another 15-20 days after his theoretical clock would have expired, then the team has something to stand on.

I think Bryant was called up the day after his clock would have started. Kind of suspicious!
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  #73  
Old 10-24-2019, 05:33 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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I think if a player is brought up a day or two AFTER their time clock expired, then there is probably justification of intent by the team. If the team waiting another 15-20 days after his theoretical clock would have expired, then the team has something to stand on.

I think Bryant was called up the day after his clock would have started. Kind of suspicious!

Bryant had a killer Cactus League stint coming off an impressive season at both AA and AAA. The Cubs not promoting him out of spring training was controversial, and apparently Chicago media and talk radio were talking about getting that extra year of control before the decision was made to send him down to Iowa to play seven PCL games at the beginning of 2015. If he came up to replace an injured position player, I missed it.

What is out there, as opposed to the actual cases that will be presented by the two sides, is circumstantial but doesn't seem to favor the Cubs. I'm surprised the Cubs have let it get this far. The matter could have been settled with a contract extension or even a trade.
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  #74  
Old 10-24-2019, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Is there anything in the current CBA which sets guidelines or criteria for when a player should be promoted? I don't know; but I doubt it. If the decision to promote a player is wholly within the subjective discretion of the team (as it should be IMO -- unless the decision is based on race, national origin, religion etc.), then I'm not sure where Bryant is going with this grievance.
A team not named "Chicago Cubs" when he does become a FA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnTucker0814 View Post
I think if a player is brought up a day or two AFTER their time clock expired, then there is probably justification of intent by the team. If the team waiting another 15-20 days after his theoretical clock would have expired, then the team has something to stand on.

I think Bryant was called up the day after his clock would have started. Kind of suspicious!
This is probably the strongest argument he (or any other player in his position) can make. The Cubs, at the start of the season, said they wanted Bryant to work on his defense which magically became acceptable after two weeks which just happened, by coincidence, to coincide, to the day, with the expiration of making that season count. I'm sure his call-up order was delivered by a flying Monkey.
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  #75  
Old 10-24-2019, 06:40 PM
I_Liked_Manuel I_Liked_Manuel is offline
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The Cubs are going to learn a hard lesson on this one either way that I wish the Sox wouldn't try to emulate (though they already have). If the Cubs win this arbitration, Bryant walks when his service time runs out because he'd have no interest re-signing with a team that would do something like this. If the Cubs lose, he leaves a year earlier. Theo probably thought the move was brilliant at the time
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