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  #31  
Old 10-02-2018, 02:12 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
The injuries could have been expected statistically if you look at baseball as a whole, especially when you look at pitching. The farther away a prospect is from the majors, the greater his chance of not fulfilling his promise, and injuries are a big part of that.

The premise that you can trade players for prospects that will develop in a straight line to success, if not stardom, is flawed. For all the No. 1 prospects that achieve stardom, there are plenty of "future stars" that you wouldn't want to give up much for in trade if you had the advantage of historical hindsight. The bad mojo of White Sox player development doesn't come into play. Addison Russell was a No. 1 prospect when the Cubs traded for him, and he isn't a factor with the Cubs. Jurickson Profar was consensus No. 1 before the 2013 season and hasn't figured it out through 2018.

Byron Buxton, was No. 1 before Moncada. Buxton looked like he had figured it out in 2017 after a rough start. He even found his way on a couple of MVP ballots at season's end. In 2018, he seemed an automatic out until he got hurt in May. After his rehab stint, the Twins left him in the minors. Some speculate he's still hurt. Some speculate it's to postpone his eligibility for free agency.
Of course, if you make bad trades, if you don't care about winning, you get better draft picks. Pick players who appear to be future stars. Carson Fulmer was considered by scouts to be closer to major league success than any other pitcher in the draft. But you don't have to be the White Sox to pick badly. During their rebuild, the Astros with the first overall selection picked a pitcher who is out of baseball never having made it to the majors.

The scorched-earth rebuild model isn't so much a plan as it is buying time for an organization. Get rid of the assets. Cut the payroll. No one expects the team to win, and the reward for losing is more high draft picks.
The reality is that if a few players distinguish themselves, as one would expect statistically, you may not be better off than you were before you traded the few players who had distinguished themselves before they brought back prospects in trade. Then, as the shampoo bottle advises, it's rinse and repeat.

I was upset when the White Sox traded Sale because they got so little in return. (If it turns out the White Sox got more for Quintana, who was struggling at the end with the Sox, than Sale, that sort of reinforces my belief.) I believed the White Sox would be better off trying to build a winning team around what they had, a concept that I think is less delusional than belief in the current rebuild model. Cleveland isn't so good that the rest of the division shouldn't be giving up. (Maybe the Twins would have been there with them if they had gotten the kind of year they expected out of Buxton.)

Hahn's trade for Shield might counter my argument, but it doesn't help the argument of those who trust he knows what he is doing.

I keep hoping Hahn gets lucky while the rest of baseball continues to get bad. But that's a far different feeling than confidence.

I respect your point of view, TDog. But I don't think the Sox could have acquired enough players to build around Sale, Eaton, and Quintana, in the time that those players had remaining on their contracts. Making several bad deals along the way robbed our organization of talent, as did the 16-year project of continually trading prospects for veterans, as did the Doug Wilder scandal, as did the previous philosophy of spending as little as possible on bonuses for draftees.


Along with drafting and developing better, and not letting Doug Wilder torpedo the Latin American operations, I think the Sox might have been able to field a competitive team around Sale, Eaton, and Quintana, had they NOT:


1. Traded Gio Gonzalez (and others) for Swisher in 2008; Gio Gonzalez could still be a useful mid-rotation starter for us today;


2. Signed John Danks after the 2011 season; and instead given a four-year contract to Mark Buehrle (although I can't fault them for lack of clairvoyance regarding Danks' shoulder); and later after Buehrle's retirement plowed that money into roster improvements elsewhere;


3. Traded Marcus Semien (and others) for Jeff Samardzija; Semien would be an acceptable third baseman today;



4. Replaced Tyler Flowers with Dioner Navarro; Flowers went on to have very good seasons in 2016 and 2017 and at the very least still could be an acceptable platoon partner catcher;


5. Signed Adam Dunn after 2010 and Adam LaRoche after 2014; both turned out to be colossal wastes of money that could have been used to upgrade the roster elsewhere;



6. Traded Tatis and Johnson for Shields in 2016 (although it's debatable how much Johnson might have helped in the interim).


BUT, all of those bad decisions are in the past. We can't undo them. Those decisions having been made, I don't think it would have been possible to build around Sale, Eaton and Quintana in the time that remains on their respective contracts.
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  #32  
Old 10-02-2018, 03:38 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
Suffered? Who suffered? I went to a bunch of games this year and enjoyed myself. "Can't beat fun at the 'ole ballpark" as we were told in the 70's.

I liked what I saw in the development of tomorrow's stars and I am looking forward to 2020 and beyond with greats optimism and excitement.
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Originally Posted by kobo View Post
Exactly. I didn't suffer nor am I embarrassed that the team lost 100 games. They weren't supposed to be good, and they weren't. How one equates a feeling of embarrassment over something that they have no control over whatsoever is beyond me.
A healthy dose of perspective. We're all frustrated, but IMO life's too short to feel that miserable over my sports team....especially when, like it or not, this is part of a planned multi-year overhaul.

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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
One thing I did learn during this season is that there are a dozen or so Debbie Downer WSIers and then there are the other Sox fans in world. The Debbie Downers are the ones who expected something great to happen this year. When I talk to non-WSI Sox fans, they are almost unanimous in their inability to contain their excitement for the 2020 and beyond. The people I've been talking to are my friends and people at the ballpark taking in the games.
That's basically how I see it. Not just other Sox fans, but most fans I know of other MLB teams understand what the Sox are doing and can see a time in a couple of years when they might be a formidable team. Perhaps is just the nature of message boards that brings out the repetitive doomsayers more than you see in your daily interactions with people.

Not that everyone has to believe that the rebuild will be successful or that anyone who has serious doubts about this entire effort is a moron. If people have reasoned doubts about the Sox officials, certain transactions, or certain prized players, they certainly have the right to that opinion and I suppose we'll all find out one way or another around 2020. But, there's that and there's the constant meatball comments seemingly after every loss and every injury about how this is all a failure, fans are being hoodwinked by Hahn & Co., and how everyone in the Sox organization short of Southpaw needed to be fired last week. Those people must be real peaches to sit next to at Sox games!

Last edited by Hitmen77; 10-02-2018 at 03:44 PM.
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  #33  
Old 10-02-2018, 04:13 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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I am part of the rebuild crowd and, no, this is not what I wanted. The same problems persist, mainly extremely questionable talent evaluation skills, and mediocre trade negotiation skills. It doesn't matter if you are rebuilding or "going for it" - if you can't evaluate talent, you are going nowhere. Back then it was Frazier, Samardizja and Shields ("elite" talents), with Keppinger, Rollins and about 20 other stiffs on the side....now it's Collins, Fulmer, Rodon, and Burger, with some Cordell and Madeira on the side.

There must be nearly 10 Hahn era ex Sox in the playoffs this season. Yes many are at the bottom of the 25, but what do the Sox have to show for those players? Burdi, Cordell, Madeira and Rutherford.

Last edited by Tragg; 10-02-2018 at 04:19 PM.
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  #34  
Old 10-02-2018, 04:37 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
...
BUT, all of those bad decisions are in the past. We can't undo them. Those decisions having been made, I don't think it would have been possible to build around Sale, Eaton and Quintana in the time that remains on their respective contracts.
Yes, getting rid of Tyler Flowers was so unpopular at the time.


The White Sox gave up and created a mess of the organization. Prospects are going to have to step up to bring the team back to where was before the rebuild to the point where fans question if it is possible to build around them.

The White Sox could have been competitive a strong bullpen and focus on situational hitting, down throughout baseball certainly, but for that reason an attribute a team could exploit to get most out of its talent. Look at those years for the number of games the White Sox lost after the seventh and the number of times the runners on third with less than two out that didn't score (or runners on second with none out that never came around to score) equaled or exceeded the difference in losses. I was arguing for better situational hitting and fewer strikeouts at the time.

Now the White Sox are losing 100 games despite having the advantage of playing so many games against the dismal AL West.

Hahn has spent money on a few relievers but he has never built a strong bullpen. There is no reason to believe he has the ability to build a strong bullpen in the future (although some prospect might develop into good relievers). If you're asking starting pitchers to pitch fewer innings, your general manager's inability to build a strong bullpen would only hurt your team more.

Even if you get past the argument of whether the team needed to trade Sale for prospect, you should be asking why Hahn, in trading Sale, didn't actually get the player the White Sox had always wanted from the Red Sox.

I thought the rebuild was a bad idea. To this point, it is looking badly executed.
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  #35  
Old 10-02-2018, 06:05 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is online now
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
The injuries could have been expected statistically if you look at baseball as a whole, especially when you look at pitching.
Bad outcomes do not become acceptable when those comprising the cohort cluster tightly around the mean.
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Last edited by Grzegorz; 10-02-2018 at 06:17 PM.
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  #36  
Old 10-02-2018, 11:45 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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I'm fine with it. 2018 was a better season than 2016, in my book.
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  #37  
Old 10-03-2018, 01:15 AM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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We were embarrassing before the rebuild, and are embarrassing now. The only difference is that I can hope for something one day as currently constructed.
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  #38  
Old 10-03-2018, 04:25 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is online now
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
During a rebuild, it is the job of the major league club to LOSE games and IMPROVE DRAFT POSITION.


Yep, the race to the bottom theory. Sounds great!



Real organizations have much more important issues to address.
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  #39  
Old 10-03-2018, 07:22 AM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post


Yep, the race to the bottom theory. Sounds great!



Real organizations have much more important issues to address.
Which organizations would those be? And what defines a "real" organization?
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  #40  
Old 10-03-2018, 07:23 AM
kobo kobo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Yes, getting rid of Tyler Flowers was so unpopular at the time.


The White Sox gave up and created a mess of the organization. Prospects are going to have to step up to bring the team back to where was before the rebuild to the point where fans question if it is possible to build around them.

The White Sox could have been competitive a strong bullpen and focus on situational hitting, down throughout baseball certainly, but for that reason an attribute a team could exploit to get most out of its talent. Look at those years for the number of games the White Sox lost after the seventh and the number of times the runners on third with less than two out that didn't score (or runners on second with none out that never came around to score) equaled or exceeded the difference in losses. I was arguing for better situational hitting and fewer strikeouts at the time.

Now the White Sox are losing 100 games despite having the advantage of playing so many games against the dismal AL West.

Hahn has spent money on a few relievers but he has never built a strong bullpen. There is no reason to believe he has the ability to build a strong bullpen in the future (although some prospect might develop into good relievers). If you're asking starting pitchers to pitch fewer innings, your general manager's inability to build a strong bullpen would only hurt your team more.

Even if you get past the argument of whether the team needed to trade Sale for prospect, you should be asking why Hahn, in trading Sale, didn't actually get the player the White Sox had always wanted from the Red Sox.

I thought the rebuild was a bad idea. To this point, it is looking badly executed.
Which player would that be and how do you know that is the player they always wanted?
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  #41  
Old 10-03-2018, 07:49 AM
TommyJohn TommyJohn is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
We were embarrassing before the rebuild, and are embarrassing now. The only difference is that I can hope for something one day as currently constructed.
I'm not embarrassed. Teams have good seasons and they have bad seasons. Circle of Life. They're in a bad spell right now. Fans of other teams remain unrepentantly arrogant and narcissistic while their favorite teams stink up the joint.

Does that mean I advocate being arrogant? No, not all. But going around saying, 'oh, oh. They're embarrassing. Oh, how terrible"? Screw that.
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  #42  
Old 10-03-2018, 07:51 AM
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Brian26 Brian26 is offline
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Originally Posted by kobo View Post
Which player would that be and how do you know that is the player they always wanted?
Benintendi. That’s been out there for awhile. He’s the guy the Sox wanted in the draft but missed by a pick or two. He’s the guy the Sox wanted at the trade deadline in 2016, however Boston would not budge. They tried again in Dec 2016 and had to settle for the Moncada package.
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  #43  
Old 10-03-2018, 08:07 AM
TommyJohn TommyJohn is offline
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This is really starting to bug me, that Boston was able to wear down Hahn and deal who they wanted for Sale. It makes me wonder if they knew something about Moncada that the Sox did not. Geez, I am starting to sound like other loud doomsayers (not on this board, though). I also wonder if other teams were offering anything for Sale.

Boston knew that the White Sox wanted to rebuild and knew that Sale was the key. They knew if they held out long enough, they'd wear Hahn down. That is exactly what happened. I was adamantly against trading Sale for that reason, but once it happened I went in on the rebuild, mainly because the other alternative was to weep and wail and predict dire doom and gloom. But this item doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about how it will all turn out.

Last edited by TommyJohn; 10-03-2018 at 08:35 AM.
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  #44  
Old 10-03-2018, 08:24 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is online now
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post


Yep, the race to the bottom theory. Sounds great!



Real organizations have much more important issues to address.
Teams in every sport employ this strategy from time to time. The Bears, Bulls and Cubs have all tried to improve draft position by tanking in the last decade. It's a common phenomenon and not limited to the Sox.
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  #45  
Old 10-03-2018, 08:28 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is online now
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Originally Posted by TommyJohn View Post
This quote should say "fill me WITH confidence" but the board won't let me edit it, for some reason.
That automatic link software gut really funky with your quoted post. I deleted the whole quoted section and you can probably edit it now.
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