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  #16  
Old 11-12-2019, 01:50 PM
TDog TDog is online now
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
I am sure you're right but that's the name of the game these days. If you have to overpay for pitching keep the duration low.

I suspect that even with the potential talent in their system this team, more than any other team on the rise will need to buy the pitching that gets them to the top.

The White Sox would need a lot more pitching than Cole to contend seriously. But pitching in such a fragile commodity that an over-commitment to limited innings over a number of years is a big gamble. It isn't just the question of injury and arm health. It's the fine difference between being very, very good at getting hitters out and being average or worse. Cole pitched less than 15 percent of the Astros' innings during the regular season, and he was healthy. No complete games, of course, but it was the most innings he had pitched in his career. You need a lot more than Cole on your staff, and if the White Sox signed Cole, they would still need a lot more pitching but would have an outrageous commitment to overcome.

I see Cole either winning with a team that is already winning or being part of a losing team that is at best on the fringes of wild-card contention (as was the team that saw the opportunity to sump Greinke's contract in 2019). I see Cole demanding too much to make a team a contender.
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  #17  
Old 11-12-2019, 01:56 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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The Sox rebuild is not that unlike others. The big thing is, as mentioned, all the teams who have won it all have mixed home grown talent with outside acquisitions.

Right now, the Sox are starting, for really the first time decades, to show they can develop some young talent (atleast hitters).

The Pitchers concern me, but the sample size is very small and still too early to tell. Lopez was a disaster, Cease getting his feet wet, Kopech hurt. Giolito made huge strides, but has credited those outside the organization more than those inside of it.

Lets just say the Sox decide to not worry about service time next year

Your IF is basically set, assuming Abreu resigns.
Your OF needs a RF that can really hit. Because your LF is basically a baby deer in the OF, the RF has to play atleast average defense.
You need a DH desperately
One of these 2 bats, if not both, needs to be a Lefty middle of the order bat

Your rotation has currently 4 arms that are locks, assuming health. So you need an arm that you can put at the top. Gio is probably a below average 1 but an above average 2. You also need a leader since the rotation is so young. Someone who knows how to handle pressure and win. Cole, Strasburg, Bumgarner all fit, most likely we end up with Wheeler, who is a nice arm, but cheaper and not a 1. Then Gio-Kopech-Cease-Lopez fit in behind them.

Your bullpen is about set, not very good, but not much room.

The shell of a pretty decent team may be there.

But if we are going to take a step forward 2 of the 3 holes we are trying to fill have to be with IMPACT talent, and Robert and Madrigal will need to be at least good their rookie years. Also, Eloy has to prove he can do it over a full year and was not just feasting on garbage september call ups.

Big prove it year for our team as a whole. Pretty much everyone has something to prove:

Eloy, Anderson, Moncada, Gio, Bummer on a prove it was not a fluke
Lopez, Cease, Kopech on a prove you belong here, same as the rooks.
Hahn prove you can win
JR prove you will financially back this team.
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  #18  
Old 11-12-2019, 01:58 PM
longtimefan longtimefan is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
That's true. I should have said that I'm hoping Hahn convinces JR that if he wants to see another WS championship in his lifetime, the time is now to spend some cash.
Exactly....the key is will JR put out the cash (and stay out of the way). While I'm a forever Sox fan, I admire how the Cubs organization works. Ricketts sets a budget and Theo has those monies to spend as he judges necessary to build the team. On the other hand, it appears Reinsdorf micro-manages every move.
Williams/Hahn should be deciding the moves without Jerry interfering. All Jerry should be involved in is the budget amount and if KW/RH are the right people for the job.
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  #19  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:31 PM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
The Sox rebuild is not that unlike others. The big thing is, as mentioned, all the teams who have won it all have mixed home grown talent with outside acquisitions.

Right now, the Sox are starting, for really the first time decades, to show they can develop some young talent (atleast hitters).

The Pitchers concern me, but the sample size is very small and still too early to tell. Lopez was a disaster, Cease getting his feet wet, Kopech hurt. Giolito made huge strides, but has credited those outside the organization more than those inside of it.

Lets just say the Sox decide to not worry about service time next year

Your IF is basically set, assuming Abreu resigns.
Your OF needs a RF that can really hit. Because your LF is basically a baby deer in the OF, the RF has to play atleast average defense.
You need a DH desperately
One of these 2 bats, if not both, needs to be a Lefty middle of the order bat

Your rotation has currently 4 arms that are locks, assuming health. So you need an arm that you can put at the top. Gio is probably a below average 1 but an above average 2. You also need a leader since the rotation is so young. Someone who knows how to handle pressure and win. Cole, Strasburg, Bumgarner all fit, most likely we end up with Wheeler, who is a nice arm, but cheaper and not a 1. Then Gio-Kopech-Cease-Lopez fit in behind them.

Your bullpen is about set, not very good, but not much room.

The shell of a pretty decent team may be there.

But if we are going to take a step forward 2 of the 3 holes we are trying to fill have to be with IMPACT talent, and Robert and Madrigal will need to be at least good their rookie years. Also, Eloy has to prove he can do it over a full year and was not just feasting on garbage september call ups.

Big prove it year for our team as a whole. Pretty much everyone has something to prove:

Eloy, Anderson, Moncada, Gio, Bummer on a prove it was not a fluke
Lopez, Cease, Kopech on a prove you belong here, same as the rooks.
Hahn prove you can win
JR prove you will financially back this team.
Agreed on all of this. IMO the rebuild has gone about as well and quickly as it could have, and now we enter 2020 with a likely core including 6 homegrown players who have above average to star potential (TA, Moncada, Eloy, Robert, Madrigal, Abreu) and three holes to fill (RF, DH, C) with one needing to be top shelf then you can get by with the other 2 being solid/average (Assume C is one of these). The rotation similarly projects to have at least 4 homegrown starters who are at least decent with top-end potential for 3 (Giolito, Cease, Kopech). But definitely need that true #1.

Key is that any title team needs to start with a core and then fill in/add. Sox are at that stage and we can only hope they get it done. But to date the rebuild has been a strong success IMO. It's just that "to date" part since additional development and external additions are required.
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  #20  
Old 11-12-2019, 04:27 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
That's true. I should have said that I'm hoping Hahn convinces JR that if he wants to see another WS championship in his lifetime, the time is now to spend some cash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Exactly....the key is will JR put out the cash (and stay out of the way). While I'm a forever Sox fan, I admire how the Cubs organization works. Ricketts sets a budget and Theo has those monies to spend as he judges necessary to build the team. On the other hand, it appears Reinsdorf micro-manages every move.
Williams/Hahn should be deciding the moves without Jerry interfering. All Jerry should be involved in is the budget amount and if KW/RH are the right people for the job.

Its not Hahn or Williams that will convince reinsdorf, its the bean counters and I hope their financial models point into the direction to do so.
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  #21  
Old 11-12-2019, 06:18 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
The White Sox would need a lot more pitching than Cole to contend seriously.
Agreed: it's just not Cole and run with it. This team needs pitching depth whether Cole is included or not.
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  #22  
Old 11-12-2019, 06:20 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Agreed: it's just not Cole and run with it. This team needs pitching depth whether Cole is included or not.
Yes but not next year.

You have to give Gio-Cease-Kopech-Lopez time to work it out and see what you have.

I am not opposed to say, signing something like Cole and Wheeler or Cole and Keuchel and trading a guy like Lopez to fill another hole, but if you have those 4, they need to start for a while.

They need more depth in a swing man, a guy who can give you 5-10 spot starts. Basically Covey, but without sucking.
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  #23  
Old 11-12-2019, 10:56 PM
MinnieMinoso MinnieMinoso is offline
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I just want to be buyers and not trading any of the young talent we have right now. I agree we need a right fielder and pitching but trading the young talent would just create more holes to fill again. Spend the money to fill the holes.
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  #24  
Old 11-12-2019, 11:09 PM
slavko slavko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
That's true. I should have said that I'm hoping Hahn convinces JR that if he wants to see another WS championship in his lifetime, the time is now to spend some cash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Exactly....the key is will JR put out the cash (and stay out of the way). While I'm a forever Sox fan, I admire how the Cubs organization works. Ricketts sets a budget and Theo has those monies to spend as he judges necessary to build the team. On the other hand, it appears Reinsdorf micro-manages every move.
Williams/Hahn should be deciding the moves without Jerry interfering. All Jerry should be involved in is the budget amount and if KW/RH are the right people for the job.
Mildly amused here about JR's micromanaging and Hahn's persuasive powers and recalling how Hahn convinced the extremely skeptical JR that Big Game James still had it. I wish JR had stood in the way instead of caving. Can't win one for losing around this place.

Also wishing we hadn't biffed up so many draft choices along the way on this rebuild. Hoping the new guys in the pipeline aren't the same old same old.
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  #25  
Old 11-13-2019, 02:46 PM
longtimefan longtimefan is offline
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Originally Posted by slavko View Post
Mildly amused here about JR's micromanaging and Hahn's persuasive powers and recalling how Hahn convinced the extremely skeptical JR that Big Game James still had it. I wish JR had stood in the way instead of caving. Can't win one for losing around this place.....
There is no way to prove this but I would bet that Hahn didn't convince JR to to pursue "big game James". I would bet it was Kenny. That fit KW's profile...trade prospects for aging players. Hahn was trying to build the farm system at that time. He was stocking up kids; not trading them. Yes, Hahn made the trade but was he told to is the question.
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  #26  
Old 11-13-2019, 09:39 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by slavko View Post
Also wishing we hadn't biffed up so many draft choices along the way on this rebuild.
This may be a bit harsh, but itís also somewhat disconcerting that players who were at least rumored to be under our consideration, that we passed on, have so far made more progress than the players we did draft.

For instance, in 2016 we passed on Gavin Lux to take Collins. Collins still could develop into a nice LH bat but thereís a reason why Lux is now the #2 overall prospect in baseball.

Likewise, in 2017 we took Jake Burger but - at least as of right now - we would have been better off with Heliot Ramos or Nate Pearson, for instance.

Itís troubling to see so many players we passed on in 2016, 2017, and 2018, higher on the prospect rankings than Collins, Burger, and even Madrigal.
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  #27  
Old 11-13-2019, 09:51 PM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
This may be a bit harsh, but itís also somewhat disconcerting that players who were at least rumored to be under our consideration, that we passed on, have so far made more progress than the players we did draft.

For instance, in 2016 we passed on Gavin Lux to take Collins. Collins still could develop into a nice LH bat but thereís a reason why Lux is now the #2 overall prospect in baseball.

Likewise, in 2017 we took Jake Burger but - at least as of right now - we would have been better off with Heliot Ramos or Nate Pearson, for instance.

Itís troubling to see so many players we passed on in 2016, 2017, and 2018, higher on the prospect rankings than Collins, Burger, and even Madrigal.
Yes, hindsight sure is 20/20, isn't it? Lux was drafted 20th overall, which means that more than half the teams in the league passed on him and, if you go by prospect ratings, made a mistake.
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  #28  
Old 11-14-2019, 06:30 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
Yes, hindsight sure is 20/20, isn't it? Lux was drafted 20th overall, which means that more than half the teams in the league passed on him and, if you go by prospect ratings, made a mistake.
There were even mock drafts/rumors that connected the Sox to Lux, which makes it sting even more.

If we had Lux in the system, we probably donít draft Madrigal, though. Iím not complaining about the Madrigal pick, but leading up to the 2018 draft we were also connected to Jarred Kelenic, who currently is ranked 13 in MLB Pipelineís Top 100.

Thereís a much bigger risk associated with high school picks, and thereís no telling if our system could have unlocked their talent.

Still, the bottom line is that we desperately need Collins, Sheets (in place of Burger, whose future obviously is very cloudy right now), Madrigal, and Vaughn to become solid contributors at a minimum. By that I mean, Collins needs to grow to become at least a slugging LH hitter who wonít hurt you defensively playing twice weekly at catcher, and DHing; Madrigal needs to be that gold glove second baseman who also hits .300+ with enough doubles and steals to offset low HR totals; and Vaughn and Sheets need to be a 1B/DH tandem that can produce like a couple of Konerkos.
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  #29  
Old 11-14-2019, 10:31 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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I know its different regimes and all, but with Collins and back to Beckham and others inbetween, can we please stop drafting guys with hand problems (hitches) in their swings. We clearly have no idea how to fix them.
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  #30  
Old 11-14-2019, 10:56 AM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Berger was healthy when he was drafted. We cannot fault the FO for the injuries he experienced. Anyone can blow an Achilles, there really is no strong way to prevent it with conditioning, etc.
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