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  #31  
Old 07-06-2017, 11:08 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by TommyJohn View Post
When are all of you going to learn that a rebuild isn't a true rebuild when it involves only two trades? Uh.

And no team ever ever ever successfully built themselves into a winner by trading a once-in-a-century legend, so that means this so-called rebuild is automatically doomed to failure.


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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
Exactly.

So many posters here seem to be oblivious to the fact that NO ONE is making trades right now (or pretty much after the winter meetings last off season)- it's not like quality rotation starters, closers and 3rd basemen are flying off the shelves but Hahn is on the sidelines- there's just no movement right now and the contenders are the one's that control that part of the equation.

There is always a flurry of activity all the way up midnight the day of the deadline, The overall grade for phase one of the rebuild will be established the morning after the deadline in 25 days.
Yeah, but look at this this way: some posters have only 25 more days to complain that the Sox so-called rebuild has only involved the management-despised Sale and Eaton.

Let's see what happens when the dust settles on July 31. If Robertson is still on the team after the deadline, then I think the complaints about Hahn sitting on the sidelines will have merit. Until then, it's more of the same complaints about the Sale and Eaton trade we've heard umpteen times since December. Maybe Melky should be gone, too. I'm not sure Frazier has much trade value.

Last edited by Hitmen77; 07-06-2017 at 11:14 AM.
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  #32  
Old 07-06-2017, 11:13 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
There's another reason: I don't trust Hahn's ability to pull off 3 trades in a week, much less 6 or so that he needs to make....

Not common, but they happen. Last year, there were trades on 6/30, 7/7...the first trade of anyone of note was the Pomeranz trade on 7/14 and then the Vogelbach/Montgomery trade on 7/21.



Sale was a generational talent - tough to trade period. I thought trading Eaton would have been a good idea even if not rebuilding - he was never as good as his numbers suggested, imo. and I figured that the Sox could get 2 good players for 1.
As for Robert, I agree but it's not like the Sox were signing elite amateur talent anyway - so if they were willing to go all in, even if just for 1 player, fine with me.
And that's the reason they are in this mess: for the last 15 years, they have drafted and signed poorly. Even pitching, perhaps especially pitching - the couldn't even find 5th starters out of the system to put around Sale, Q and Rodon. They couldn't or didn't fix Fulmer's delivery, so it looks like he's toast.
It's a bit early to proclaim him as a bust. He's 23 and this is only his 2nd full season after being drafted.

He may indeed end up being a bust, but I'm not quite ready to close the book on a June 2015 draft pick.
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  #33  
Old 07-06-2017, 11:40 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
It's a bit early to proclaim him as a bust. He's 23 and this is only his 2nd full season after being drafted.

He may indeed end up being a bust, but I'm not quite ready to close the book on a June 2015 draft pick.
You're right - too early.
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  #34  
Old 07-06-2017, 12:15 PM
cws05champ cws05champ is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
It's a bit early to proclaim him as a bust. He's 23 and this is only his 2nd full season after being drafted.

He may indeed end up being a bust, but I'm not quite ready to close the book on a June 2015 draft pick.
Plenty of failed starters that end up being dynamite relievers as well. He could be a great set up guy even though the control seems to be an issue right now. His velocity would tick up coming in for 1-2 innings at a time as well.
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  #35  
Old 07-06-2017, 12:38 PM
KRS1 KRS1 is offline
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Originally Posted by cws05champ View Post
Plenty of failed starters that end up being dynamite relievers as well. He could be a great set up guy even though the control seems to be an issue right now. His velocity would tick up coming in for 1-2 innings at a time as well.
I've always thought Carson would be a RP from the second I saw him pitch. Everything about him screams bullpen to me. I get wanting to develop starters, but I just don't see it in him. His stuff looked so much better in short spurts than his starts. You have to give him another year in Charlotte starting just because our window outlook, but I expect to see him in the pen by the time this team is competing. I hope I'm wrong.
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  #36  
Old 07-06-2017, 01:07 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by KRS1 View Post
I've always thought Carson would be a RP from the second I saw him pitch. Everything about him screams bullpen to me. I get wanting to develop starters, but I just don't see it in him. His stuff looked so much better in short spurts than his starts. You have to give him another year in Charlotte starting just because our window outlook, but I expect to see him in the pen by the time this team is competing. I hope I'm wrong.
With the ever-increasing emphasis on relievers, set against the context of the number of high-quality starting pitching prospects we have, it's not terrible if Fulmer ends up as a high-leverage reliever, yes?
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  #37  
Old 07-06-2017, 01:14 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Here's who I think will get traded before the deadline (and my guess to their destinations):


Robertson and Jennings to Washington,
Frazier and Swarzak to Boston,
Holland to NYY, and
Quintana to Houston (though I have a sinking feeling he may end up on the North Side).


Melkey stays for now. Anyone else with predictions?
Your predictions make sense and as good as anyone else's but the key is what we get in return.
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  #38  
Old 07-06-2017, 01:32 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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The South Side Sox podcast explained the factors that make a deal of Quintana to the Yankees particularly logical.

First, they have so many top prospects that they have issues with their 40-man roster. Trading several would reduce their roster crunch.

Second, Quintana's affordable contract helps the Yankees reduce their luxury tax penalty for the next several years.

Even though I don't think Quintana must be dealt, I still hope Hahn exploits this and, ideally, packages Quintana, Robertson, Frazier and cash to the Yankees for a massive haul of Top 100 prospects.

Then you can deal Kahnle/Swarczak to Washington, and Melky to the highest bidder.
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  #39  
Old 07-06-2017, 02:12 PM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
The South Side Sox podcast explained the factors that make a deal of Quintana to the Yankees particularly logical.

First, they have so many top prospects that they have issues with their 40-man roster. Trading several would reduce their roster crunch.

Second, Quintana's affordable contract helps the Yankees reduce their luxury tax penalty for the next several years.

Even though I don't think Quintana must be dealt, I still hope Hahn exploits this and, ideally, packages Quintana, Robertson, Frazier and cash to the Yankees for a massive haul of Top 100 prospects.

Then you can deal Kahnle/Swarczak to Washington, and Melky to the highest bidder.
From your lips to Cashman's ears.......Torres, Rutherford, Sheffield would be nice......
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  #40  
Old 07-06-2017, 02:51 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Flight #24 View Post
From your lips to Cashman's ears.......Torres, Rutherford, Sheffield would be nice......
Fine with me.

Then, after August 1, we make all the veteran starters available through waivers, selling them for whatever we can get. Doubt we get a taker on Shields, but he can eat innings this year and next.

At that point, you bring up Lopez, Giolito, Fulmer, and Burdi, and just let them pitch. Doesn't matter if they start or pitch in relief; just let them throw multiple inning outings to get experience facing major league hitters. Bullpen roles also don't matter at that point, either, as August and September become like spring training games.

Then, in the offseason, sign a few fringe veteran starters looking for rebounds on one-year deals, just like Pelfrey and Holland this year. Let them eat innings around whatever of the youngsters make the 2018 rotation and bullpen. Then you trade those fringe veterans next August for lottery tickets to open up innings for Hansen, Kopech, Dunning, and Stephens to get some experience against MLB hitters.

In the meantime, have May and Engel patrol the outfield to help those young pitchers with their defense, because we're going to take some lumps as Moncada and Anderson learn to work together through 2018.

By 2019 the rotation and bullpen, should start to take shape. By 2020, we should be ready to assemble an outfield from among Robert, Adolfo, Gonzalez, Call, Fisher, Engel, and May; find long-term corner IFs among Burger, Davidson, Sheets, Delmonico, or Michalczewski; find a catching tandem among Collins, Skoug, Zavala, Smith, and Narvaez; and Abreu and/or Garcia can DH.
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  #41  
Old 07-06-2017, 03:18 PM
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Chez Chez is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
The South Side Sox podcast explained the factors that make a deal of Quintana to the Yankees particularly logical.

First, they have so many top prospects that they have issues with their 40-man roster. Trading several would reduce their roster crunch.

Second, Quintana's affordable contract helps the Yankees reduce their luxury tax penalty for the next several years.

Even though I don't think Quintana must be dealt, I still hope Hahn exploits this and, ideally, packages Quintana, Robertson, Frazier and cash to the Yankees for a massive haul of Top 100 prospects.

Then you can deal Kahnle/Swarczak to Washington, and Melky to the highest bidder.

With Chapman and Betances, the Yankees really don't need Robertson. And Headley's numbers are better than Frazier's. But NYY would be a great trading partner for Q.
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  #42  
Old 07-06-2017, 03:54 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
With the ever-increasing emphasis on relievers, set against the context of the number of high-quality starting pitching prospects we have, it's not terrible if Fulmer ends up as a high-leverage reliever, yes?
Not terrible, but not the desired outcome for the #8 pick.
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  #43  
Old 07-06-2017, 05:04 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Not terrible, but not the desired outcome for the #8 pick.
Perhaps you will be proven right. Depends on who was equally highly touted at the time and drafted after him. We won't know for a few years. In the Sox defense, at the time of the pick the Sox were in "compete now" mode (even if they were unsuccessful at it) and there was some thought that Fulmer would be able to contribute to the bullpen in 2016, and then perhaps later slide into the rotation after Sale, Quintana, and Rodon, giving the Sox a potentially young and cheap rotation for several years, which would have allowed them to devote dollars to signing hitters around the similarly cost-controlled Abreu and Eaton.

In that context the Fulmer pick made sense (as did the Frazier trade, for that matter). One could argue that if Shields had been able to regain his form in 2016, or if Danks had been able to replicate his 2015 season into 2016, and Avila (perhaps paired with Flowers instead of the steaming pile of garbage that replaced him and who my brain has worked hard to forget) and Jackson had stayed healthy in 2016, the plan actually might have worked. The plan didn't work, of course, but it doesn't mean it was a bad plan. It's just a plan that didn't work.

And because that plan failed, now we're on a completely different plan.
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  #44  
Old 07-06-2017, 05:20 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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The plan didn't work, of course, but it doesn't mean it was a bad plan. It's just a plan that didn't work.

And because that plan failed, now we're on a completely different plan.
The "plan" to stock up on as many mediocre / over the hill vets didn't work for years...not just last year.

Long past time for a radicle change in my opinion.
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  #45  
Old 07-06-2017, 05:49 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Perhaps you will be proven right. Depends on who was equally highly touted at the time and drafted after him. We won't know for a few years. In the Sox defense, at the time of the pick the Sox were in "compete now" mode (even if they were unsuccessful at it) and there was some thought that Fulmer would be able to contribute to the bullpen in 2016, and then perhaps later slide into the rotation after Sale, Quintana, and Rodon, giving the Sox a potentially young and cheap rotation for several years, which would have allowed them to devote dollars to signing hitters around the similarly cost-controlled Abreu and Eaton.
But most contenders don't use the draft to help this year's team. Maybe too much short term thinking was part of the reason the plan failed. I had hoped the rousing success of the Eaton trade would inspire them for more similar type trades - but it didn't.
An effective Fulmer in the bullpen will be good outcome, really, for a prospect who didn't produce the way they hoped he would.
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