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  #151  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:58 AM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by Jurr View Post
*golf clap for Rick Hahn*

It finally happened! 10 of the top 100 prospects in baseball are Sox property.
Bottoming out may never again be as well-played as what we've seen here.

This product had become SO stale, to the point that I couldn't gather up enough anti-nausea medication to watch it. The team has needed this for so long, and we all worried that if a team could screw up a gathering of prospects, it would be the Chicago White Sox.

Well, I'm thrilled to be wrong on that one.
That's good but what would be better if those 10 were our own products,
money must be spent on the Farm System so maybe one day we will see a scenario where we have the best system with home grown products. If and when that happens the FO won"t have to trade guys like Sale and Quintana.
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  #152  
Old 07-20-2017, 08:38 AM
Dan H Dan H is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
That's good but what would be better if those 10 were our own products,
money must be spent on the Farm System so maybe one day we will see a scenario where we have the best system with home grown products. If and when that happens the FO won"t have to trade guys like Sale and Quintana.
I agree with this. And rebuild or no rebuild, the Sox will have to do something to shore up this pitching staff. Either they will determine a minor leaguer is ready to eat up some innings or they have to find a way to get a credible starter on this staff. It can't go on like this.
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  #153  
Old 07-20-2017, 08:58 AM
Bob Roarman Bob Roarman is offline
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Or they can just do what they've done for the last decade plus and develop great pitching. Seriously, what have people been watching? Not EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has been a winner but by and large, when compared to every other team in the league over that time span, the Sox are one of if not the best at developing pitching. And I'm not talking about with some of the type of pitching prospects they got now which rank among the best in the game, guys that have a huge upside to them. Where it's expected to happen. They built great starting pitchers and relievers in a cave. With a box of scraps.

This should be the last thing people worry about.
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  #154  
Old 07-20-2017, 09:05 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
That's good but what would be better if those 10 were our own products,
money must be spent on the Farm System so maybe one day we will see a scenario where we have the best system with home grown products. If and when that happens the FO won"t have to trade guys like Sale and Quintana.
Agreed. The Sox front office let the farm system fall off a cliff over a 10-15 year period leaving the team little choice but to start shipping off what little elite talent they had in order to jump start the talent pool.

Why is it that teams like the Red Sox and Yankees always seem to have young elite talent to bring up or to trade for veterans? Look at the Dodgers - they didn't have to "tank" to get Bellinger and Seager.

For sustained success, the Sox are going to have to start developing their own talent - and not just in years that they have a top 10 pick.
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  #155  
Old 07-20-2017, 09:11 AM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
Agreed. The Sox front office let the farm system fall off a cliff over a 10-15 year period leaving the team little choice but to start shipping off what little elite talent they had in order to jump start the talent pool.

Why is it that teams like the Red Sox and Yankees always seem to have young elite talent to bring up or to trade for veterans? Look at the Dodgers - they didn't have to "tank" to get Bellinger and Seager.

For sustained success, the Sox are going to have to start developing their own talent - and not just in years that they have a top 10 pick.
Agreed 1000%. One thing moving in the White Sox favor is the Yankees/Red Sox have made hay in part by leveraging their resources to draft guys who slid for signability reasons and by paying large bonuses to international guys (like Moncada). Both of those are limited now, evening the field.

Now the Dodgers - they've just generally been great historically at drafting and developing, including a stretch of 4 straight ROYs in the 80s and 5 straight in the 90s. Definitely a team to emulate.
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  #156  
Old 07-20-2017, 11:09 AM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Someone asked about possible landing spots for Melky so I took a quick look at teams relatively in contention and what their OF/DH situation looked like. As expected, the market is not all that large but there are teams that would benefit from trading for either Melky or Avi.

At just a quick glance I would say:

Tampa (maybe)
Seattle
LA Angels (maybe)
Texas (maybe)
Washington (depending on their injury situation)
Arizona (depending on JD Martinez injury)
Cleveland
Kansas City

So it's possible that one or both get moved but I wouldn't count on it and I wouldn't count on much of a return for Melky even given him having a good year and providing good value at the plate.

As for trading Avi, I would if it would get the sort of return we've been seeing. We have no way of knowing if this is a fluke year, in which case we'd be trading at high-value, or if this is Avi going forward, in which case he is young enough to be an asset to the rebuild. So for different reasons I would treat him like Quintana and only trade him if the offer is overwhelming. Melky I would hold out for what I could but then trade him for whatever I could. He's gone at the end of the year regardless.

Last edited by Andrew C White; 07-20-2017 at 01:27 PM.
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  #157  
Old 07-20-2017, 11:53 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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For anyone wondering what the return would be in a Melky Cabrera trade, look no further than the underwhelming return the Tigers received from the Diamondbacks for J.D. Martinez, and then subtract significantly from it. The fact that the Mets can't drum up any interest for players like Jay Bruce and Curtis Granderson who are superior to Melky does not bode well. Plus, if guys like Andrew McCutchen and Marcell Ozuna become available, the demand goes even lower.
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  #158  
Old 07-20-2017, 01:26 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
For anyone wondering what the return would be in a Melky Cabrera trade, look no further than the underwhelming return the Tigers received from the Diamondbacks for J.D. Martinez, and then subtract significantly from it. The fact that the Mets can't drum up any interest for players like Jay Bruce and Curtis Granderson who are superior to Melky does not bode well. Plus, if guys like Andrew McCutchen and Marcell Ozuna become available, the demand goes even lower.
Exactly. While Melky provides value there is a short list of teams with potential interest and a long list of available players with similar profiles. This drops his value considerably and maybe makes it not worth trading him at all.

Similarly, with Avi there is a short list of teams with potential interest, and while he provides greater value if you think this year is for real, the likelihood of trading him for similar return as our previous trades is pretty slim and he is definitely worth taking a chance on keeping if the return isn't overwhelming.
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  #159  
Old 07-20-2017, 01:47 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
For anyone wondering what the return would be in a Melky Cabrera trade, look no further than the underwhelming return the Tigers received from the Diamondbacks for J.D. Martinez, and then subtract significantly from it. The fact that the Mets can't drum up any interest for players like Jay Bruce and Curtis Granderson who are superior to Melky does not bode well. Plus, if guys like Andrew McCutchen and Marcell Ozuna become available, the demand goes even lower.
Dead on. Melky obtains at best mild salary relief and a low-level minor leaguer.
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  #160  
Old 07-20-2017, 02:26 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is online now
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Pittsburgh is back in the race since Milwaukee is collapsing.

Regarding Melky, if Hahn is smart he'll pair him up with Swarzak. I think you could get some lower level prospects for that maybe a little more if a team is desperate enough.
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  #161  
Old 07-20-2017, 03:45 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Swarzak has some value. #8 in WAR among relievers this year.
Melky has little value - still it's best to move him. Beckham turned into Almonte (still a good prospect) who turned into Kahnle.
No reason to keep these guys.
Clippard either.
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  #162  
Old 07-20-2017, 03:56 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Roarman View Post
Or they can just do what they've done for the last decade plus and develop great pitching. Seriously, what have people been watching? Not EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has been a winner but by and large, when compared to every other team in the league over that time span, the Sox are one of if not the best at developing pitching.
If the Sox had been good at developing pitching, they wouldn't have had to rebuild. They haven't developed anyone behind Sale and Q (Rodon is in-process) and they have had to fill out the 4th and 5th starters with an assortment of bad veterans (the talent evaluation is bad, they can't even evaluate veterans very well).
Bullpen? Nate Jones when healthy, Putnam is inconsistent, but good when on and when healthy; Petricka has never been any good.
They traded 2 young pitchers (who haven't done much) - but for the usual overrated veterans.
They have actually developed more passable position players than pitchers in the last 5 years.
There's nothing else - Pitching development has been deplorable.
Pitching is also the universal currency - develop lots of pitching, and you can trade for the position players that you need.

Last edited by Tragg; 07-20-2017 at 04:52 PM.
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  #163  
Old 07-20-2017, 04:51 PM
Bob Roarman Bob Roarman is offline
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Well you just mentioned 2 of the best current pitchers in the game over the last few years. Did they materialize out of thin air? Sale may have been ready to go very quickly but they still had to work with him on developing his pitches, especially his change up and slider. Teams were wary of his ability to hold up because of his mechanics and thought him long term to be a reliever, which is why in spite of his talent he fell to the White Sox after nearly half the league passed on him. But thanks to the incredible training staff and pitching development of the White Sox he's become the one of the best, and most durable, pitchers in the game.

Who was Jose Quintana before the Sox signed him? Just some guy that both the Mets and Yankees let go. The day he signed with the Sox wasn't some earth shattering day, it was just another pick up of a guy some other teams didn't want.

Who was Nate Jones? Who was Tommy Kahnle before he came here, the guy who just helped land one of the best outfielder prospects in the game? Who was Hector Santiago who got them Adam Eaton (who in turn landed them 2 of the top ranked pitching prospects in Giolito and Lopez along with Dane Dunning)? Outside of Sale....who were these players? They were just guys before they came here.
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  #164  
Old 07-21-2017, 12:14 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew C White
This drops his value considerably and maybe makes it not worth trading him at all.
The salary dump alone makes trading him worthwhile. No reason whatsoever to pay $5 million for two months of outfield play on a go-nowhere team when someone else can do it for $200K. Even if you have to pay half the salary, it's worth it just to recoup the other half. Whatever salary can be dumped from a Melky trade, when combined with the cash already saved on Robertson and Frazier, will almost have Robert's bonus paid off in its entirety.
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  #165  
Old 07-21-2017, 12:29 AM
soxfanreggie soxfanreggie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan H View Post
I agree with this. And rebuild or no rebuild, the Sox will have to do something to shore up this pitching staff. Either they will determine a minor leaguer is ready to eat up some innings or they have to find a way to get a credible starter on this staff. It can't go on like this.
We'll certainly have FA $$$ to bring someone in. We could easily front-load a deal or two for starters with how low our payroll will be the next two year. They don't have to be $20+ million players, but finding some talent to add is doable.
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