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  #46  
Old 07-03-2018, 02:45 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
I personally don't think it's a lot to ask to say a first baseman should step on the bag to record an out on a routine grounder.

The Sox have screwed this up twice in the past week.

And we're supposed to accept that because we're rebuilding. Not a chance. Basically, we have some here who are trying to create a situation where no criticism is valid, because, you know, we're rebuilding, and we should expect to lose every game the rest of the season, and shame on us for wanting to see some competent play and some improvement out of the White Sox this summer.
Again...BRAVO! Rebuild or not at least look like you know what you're doing. Fake it if you have to. Exactly on the ****ing point!
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  #47  
Old 07-03-2018, 02:48 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Yes. The bad veterans on last year's bad team made fewer mental mistakes than the bad young players on this year's bad team. Plus, Avi Garcia was putting up All Star numbers. Plus, last year's bullpen was better. That is a lot to have go wrong from one season to the next, and it reflects in the record.


My biggest concern is that Rick Renteria, for all his "rah-rah-red-assed" shtick, absolutely sucks as an in-game manager, and this organization pumps sunshine up our asses every chance it gets when the topic of Renteria comes up. I have a bad feeling that he will be replaced only after the whole rebuild flops and is too badly damaged to salvage.

Who was the last manager the White Sox actually fired and not merely allowed his contract to expire? Jerry Manuel? Terry Bevington?
That's a good question, I'm guessing Manuel. Remember this organization usually doesn't like to pay players or managers to not work.
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  #48  
Old 07-03-2018, 02:52 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I've been reading where Omar is actually bunting at a higher rate even then RR.

"Clown" baseball was back last night that's for sure.
But his priority is development of High A talent- I can't necessarily question that approach in the low minors.
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  #49  
Old 07-03-2018, 02:54 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Funny how that mentoring became so much more valuable to some posters here (not you) when he stared pitching better than absolute garbage. It’s like if Abreu started hitting .220, you wouldn’t hear much about his alleged importance to the Cuban players anymore.

Sports fans are so goddamn fickle.
To be fair- it's White Sox pitchers at the major league and in the minors who have really endorsed Shields' value as a coach and mentor.
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  #50  
Old 07-03-2018, 02:59 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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To be fair- it's White Sox pitchers at the major league and in the minors who have really endorsed Shields' value as a coach and mentor.
Right; I'm just saying the fans don't care about that part at all when not performing.
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  #51  
Old 07-03-2018, 02:59 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Yes. The bad veterans on last year's bad team made fewer mental mistakes than the bad young players on this year's bad team. Plus, Avi Garcia was putting up All Star numbers. Plus, last year's bullpen was better. That is a lot to have go wrong from one season to the next, and it reflects in the record.


My biggest concern is that Rick Renteria, for all his "rah-rah-red-assed" shtick, absolutely sucks as an in-game manager, and this organization pumps sunshine up our asses every chance it gets when the topic of Renteria comes up. I have a bad feeling that he will be replaced only after the whole rebuild flops and is too badly damaged to salvage.

Who was the last manager the White Sox actually fired and not merely allowed his contract to expire? Jerry Manuel? Terry Bevington?
Gene Lemont and before that Tony LaRussa.
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  #52  
Old 07-03-2018, 03:04 PM
TomC727 TomC727 is offline
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This, near 100%.

I mean, I won't tell anyone how to be a fan. If it is more enjoyable in the aggregate for someone, knowing this team is basically going to lose a ton this year and had zero intention of competing, to be bothered by (1) losses, generally, (2) in-game management decisions involving bad players on a bad roster by a bad manager, (3) personnel issues between Juan Minaya and AAAA relievers like Jeanmar Gomez, as if wins or losses matter in 2018, and (4) poor, below-MLB-expectation-level play by guys like Matt Davidson and Omar Narvaez, who will be nowhere near this team when it competes again, that is one's prerogative as a fan and a consumer.

But really, it's all a lot of unnecessary emotion and energy. It reminds me of how I used to watch the late 80s Sox as a kid when they stank to high hell. I always though they could win, and all kinds of things bothered me, and it was never over until they were mathematically eliminated. That was all fine, but I was a kid.

I look forward to caring about game-to-game results again, but that time certainly ain't now. Yet, my love of baseball hasn't diminished. I watch far more baseball not involving the Sox (due to roto and wagering) and my knowledge and appreciation of the game has expanded as a result.
This is exactly how I look at it. I understand the frustration of losing and never want my favorite team to lose, but then I take a step back and understand the purpose and what the state of this team was after 2016.

This is a question I ask anyone who gets miserable and fired up for all these losses, all be it, ugly ones.

Would you rather have a few more wins here and there and finish, say, with the 5th worst record in baseball, or keep the embarrassing, losing ways and finish with the 1st or 2nd worse record in baseball and have your pick at the 1st or 2nd pick in the draft.

If anyone watched the College World Series this year and saw the catcher for Oregon State (Adley Rutschman) dominate the season and series, would you feel better after a few more meaningless wins, or snagging someone like him in next years draft.

This season means nothing. Their record means nothing. Hell, the vast majority of this roster won't even exist in a couple years. The Athletic even wrote a great article yesterday and talked about Moncada's horrible year. It doesn't matter what his stats are this year. What matters is in the next 1-2 years.

This^^^ is why I stop caring about these losses. If 2020 rolls around and this team is still horrendous, then the fanbase is going to be walking down 35th and Shields with pitch forks. Until then, let them lose. The sooner someone comes to the realization of this, the better you will feel, and even better for your health.

I still am a season ticket holder, and I still watch their games, but now it is more of a background activity vs. really focusing on the games. I love baseball. I love watching the sport. The White Sox are my team but I know their is hope in the future. The present right now is dark, but hopefully there is some light.
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Last edited by TomC727; 07-03-2018 at 03:10 PM.
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  #53  
Old 07-03-2018, 03:16 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
I personally don't think it's a lot to ask to say a first baseman should step on the bag to record an out on a routine grounder.

The Sox have screwed this up twice in the past week.

And we're supposed to accept that because we're rebuilding. Not a chance. Basically, we have some here who are trying to create a situation where no criticism is valid, because, you know, we're rebuilding, and we should expect to lose every game the rest of the season, and shame on us for wanting to see some competent play and some improvement out of the White Sox this summer.
Like Kittle, I am not going to tell anyone how to be a fan. I agree with the above, for the most part, but I'm not going to waste energy on complaining about how ****ty the team is this year. The really messed up part, for me personally, is that I have watched more games this year than last year. And when someone makes a boneheaded play I curse and shake my head in disgust but then I also realize that player isn't going to be here in 2 years.


Each one of us watches the game in our own way and we all have different levels of expectation. Criticize away if you want. I've become more disgusted with Renteria this year due to some of the decisions he's made and I question how long he will be here. But the hand-wringing over the lack of fundamentals and how this is an indictment on the organization and the system is something I don't buy. That's just another one of the old pessimistic thoughts that seemingly plague Sox fans.
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  #54  
Old 07-03-2018, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by TomC727 View Post
This is exactly how I look at it. I understand the frustration of losing and never want my favorite team to lose, but then I take a step back and understand the purpose and what the state of this team was after 2016.

This is a question I ask anyone who gets miserable and fired up for all these losses, all be it, ugly ones.

Would you rather have a few more wins here and there and finish, say, with the 5th worst record in baseball, or keep the embarrassing, losing ways and finish with the 1st or 2nd worse record in baseball and have your pick at the 1st or 2nd pick in the draft.

If anyone watched the College World Series this year and saw the catcher for Oregon State (Adley Rutschman) dominate the season and series, would you feel better after a few more meaningless wins, or snagging someone like him in next years draft.

This season means nothing. Their record means nothing. Hell, the vast majority of this roster won't even exist in a couple years. The Athletic even wrote a great article yesterday and talked about Moncada's horrible year. It doesn't matter what his stats are this year. What matters is in the next 1-2 years.

This^^^ is why I stop caring about these losses. If 2020 rolls around and this team is still horrendous, then the fanbase is going to be walking down 35th and Shields with pitch forks. Until then, let them lose. The sooner someone comes to the realization of this, the better you will feel, and even better for your health.

I still am a season ticket holder, and I still watch their games, but now it is more of a background activity vs. really focusing on the games. I love baseball. I love watching the sport. The White Sox are my team but I know their is hope in the future. The present right now is dark, but hopefully there is some light.
This.

Thank you.

Win or lose, you can't beat fun at the 'ole ballpark.
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  #55  
Old 07-03-2018, 03:34 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
But his priority is development of High A talent- I can't necessarily question that approach in the low minors.
That is true. I wasn't judging him on it simply stating what I've seen.
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  #56  
Old 07-03-2018, 03:35 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Gene Lemont and before that Tony LaRussa.
Really. Guess that proves the original point. I though for sure Manuel was fired.
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  #57  
Old 07-03-2018, 03:42 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by TomC727 View Post
Would you rather have a few more wins here and there and finish, say, with the 5th worst record in baseball, or keep the embarrassing, losing ways and finish with the 1st or 2nd worse record in baseball and have your pick at the 1st or 2nd pick in the draft. It doesn't matter what his stats are this year. What matters is in the next 1-2 years.
I'm also looking long term and if the pieces who actually are supposed to be a part of the team in two or three years isn't taught right now, the correct way to play the game, to learn the fundamentals, to know what to do in certain situations then how in the hell are they supposed to know what to do when the games DO count? When the Sox ARE expected to win? By osmosis? (ya' like that word? ) Moncada isn't the only one of these guys who are going to be on the big league roster in three years time, I'll wager on that one...I can certainly see three or four others who very well could be.

That's the risk you run if guys aren't told / taught what to do in the hear and now. So in that sense I disagree with you, it DOES matter.

Moncada, Sunday for example...I haven't seen it but I read it being discussed elsewhere that a media member wrote a column today blistering Ricky for not yanking him out of the game when he didn't hustle, that if he didn't do it then, when would he? And what did that tell the rest of the team? And what did that tell Moncada?

The one thing a manager has today for a hammer is playing time, maybe that's one way to get the message across regarding "baseball-stupid" plays...like I said if they don't know what base to throw to now, do you really think they'll have it figured out in two years?

I like baseball...I LOVE the White Sox. When the Sox are losing even in a rebuild, I have absolutely no desire, none, nada, nyet to watch other teams win, other organizations celebrate and other fan bases actually having fun. Screw that ****. I'd rather watch my tapes and DVD's of the Sox (from as far back as 1981) when they actually were having success. Hopefully it all works out in (now) three or four years (because of all the injuries) and I can start caring again about the Phillies or the Dodgers or the Royals.

Just my opinion.

Last edited by Lip Man 1; 07-03-2018 at 03:52 PM.
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  #58  
Old 07-03-2018, 04:55 PM
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Chez Chez is offline
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I like baseball...I LOVE the White Sox. When the Sox are losing even in a rebuild, I have absolutely no desire, none, nada, nyet to watch other teams win, other organizations celebrate and other fan bases actually having fun. Screw that ****. I'd rather watch my tapes and DVD's of the Sox (from as far back as 1981) when they actually were having success. Hopefully it all works out in (now) three or four years (because of all the injuries) and I can start caring again about the Phillies or the Dodgers or the Royals.

Just my opinion.

Lip, the Russian word for "none" is not nyet. It is nikto.
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  #59  
Old 07-03-2018, 05:16 PM
RCWHITESOX RCWHITESOX is offline
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Like Kittle, I am not going to tell anyone how to be a fan. I agree with the above, for the most part, but I'm not going to waste energy on complaining about how ****ty the team is this year. The really messed up part, for me personally, is that I have watched more games this year than last year. And when someone makes a boneheaded play I curse and shake my head in disgust but then I also realize that player isn't going to be here in 2 years.


Each one of us watches the game in our own way and we all have different levels of expectation. Criticize away if you want. I've become more disgusted with Renteria this year due to some of the decisions he's made and I question how long he will be here. But the hand-wringing over the lack of fundamentals and how this is an indictment on the organization and the system is something I don't buy. That's just another one of the old pessimistic thoughts that seemingly plague Sox fans.
I understand that the wins and losses really don’t matter in a rebuild but I can’t see how this team is going to improve if these new players being counted on are still making the same fundamental poor baseball decisions we’re seeing on a daily basis. After all Anderson, Moncada, and others that are eventually coming up are supposed to at least baseball smart. I really have to ask myself who’s coaching and teaching these players? I have seen the Phillies, Braves, Astros, and Cubs put together rebuilds and I just see many more fundamental mistakes by Sox players which leads me to believe it has to be a organizational problem and needs to be addressed.
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  #60  
Old 07-03-2018, 05:57 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by TomC727 View Post
Would you rather have a few more wins here and there and finish, say, with the 5th worst record in baseball, or keep the embarrassing, losing ways and finish with the 1st or 2nd worse record in baseball and have your pick at the 1st or 2nd pick in the draft.
I'd rather build a winning culture based on fundamentals, effort and teamwork.

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Originally Posted by TomC727 View Post
This season means nothing. Their record means nothing. Hell, the vast majority of this roster won't even exist in a couple years. The Athletic even wrote a great article yesterday and talked about Moncada's horrible year. It doesn't matter what his stats are this year. What matters is in the next 1-2 years.
I am sorry, to me every season means something. There must be a improvement from year to year: a progression.

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Originally Posted by TomC727 View Post
If 2020 rolls around and this team is still horrendous, then the fanbase is going to be walking down 35th and Shields with pitch forks. Until then, let them lose. The sooner someone comes to the realization of this, the better you will feel, and even better for your health.
There will be no pitchforks, just empty seats. BTW, I feel pretty good and my health is excellent.
Why? Because it is only baseball: a game.
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