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  #76  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:28 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
His slugging a combined .382 between levels this year. The Sox are probably hoping he develops into something more than a slap singles hitter. He can stay down and work on hitting into the gaps and down the lines more.
He's slugging .413 combined this year... That isn't great, but will likely get higher in AAA and the majors because of the juiced balls. I say move him up soon, he's one of the most MLB ready bats in the minors. Guys like Benintendi and Bregman were in the majors in the second half of the year after being drafted, Madrigal can do the same.
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  #77  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:39 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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He's slugging .413 combined this year... That isn't great, but will likely get higher in AAA and the majors because of the juiced balls. I say move him up soon, he's one of the most MLB ready bats in the minors. Guys like Benintendi and Bregman were in the majors in the second half of the year after being drafted, Madrigal can do the same.
Madrigal is not the same caliber of prospect that Benintendi and Bregman were. Not really that close to them, either.
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  #78  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:50 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Madrigal is not the same caliber of prospect that Benintendi and Bregman were. Not really that close to them, either.
That's not the point. Madrigal is as close to reaching his ceiling now, as they were at the same point. He is a different player than them, but is extremely advanced for what he brings to the table.

Keep a 5'7 150 lbs player in the minors longer to learn how to hit more home runs when he didn't hit them before? The Sox knew what they were getting when they drafted him. Again, the balls in AAA go farther than the ones in AA, so why not see what he does with those?
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  #79  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:50 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Lorenzo Barcelo was the centerpiece of the trade. Really, great things were expected of him. Bob Howry had a big fastball and was expected to close to coming up as a reliever. Keith Foulke was a starter who didn't throw hard, not the potential of the other pitcher prospects. He had good stuff, but in eight games as a starter for the Giants and three in relief, he had an ERA over 8. Shortly before the trade he gave up six earned runs in 2 innings to the Cardinals. The other prospect was Brian Manning, a center fielder who never hit well enough to get past Birmingham.

Ranking the booty from that plunder of the Giants system depends on who you talk to, but Caruso was behind Barcelo, and probably Howry. Caruso was ahead of Foulke. If there was a throw-in, it would be Manning, but with the Giants and even with the White Sox before he hit the Southern League, it looked like he would hit.
No love for Ken Vining? He was in that trade too, and he reached the majors with the Sox.
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  #80  
Old 07-08-2019, 11:06 PM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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That's not the point. Madrigal is as close to reaching his ceiling now, as they were at the same point. He is a different player than them, but is extremely advanced for what he brings to the table.

Keep a 5'7 150 lbs player in the minors longer to learn how to hit more home runs when he didn't hit them before? The Sox knew what they were getting when they drafted him. Again, the balls in AAA go farther than the ones in AA, so why not see what he does with those?
I think the Sox are hoping for doubles power from Madrigal rather than home run power.

But regardless, he's barely got 100 PA at AA, and yeah he's done well with them, but there's no need to rush him. The biggest difference between Madrigal and the two players you mentioned is that their teams were looking to contend that year, and the Sox are not (not this year at least).
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  #81  
Old 07-08-2019, 11:23 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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I think the Sox are hoping for doubles power from Madrigal rather than home run power.

But regardless, he's barely got 100 PA at AA, and yeah he's done well with them, but there's no need to rush him. The biggest difference between Madrigal and the two players you mentioned is that their teams were looking to contend that year, and the Sox are not (not this year at least).
The doubles will come with the MLB balls. He's on pace currently to have 45ish XBHs in a full 162 game season, which isn't that bad.

Good point on those teams were looking to contend. Still, they were ready and played similarly to how they were in the minors that year. I think Madrigal can come up in Sept and have a decent BA and set himself up well for '20.
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  #82  
Old 07-08-2019, 11:26 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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He's slugging .413 combined this year... That isn't great, but will likely get higher in AAA and the majors because of the juiced balls. I say move him up soon, he's one of the most MLB ready bats in the minors. Guys like Benintendi and Bregman were in the majors in the second half of the year after being drafted, Madrigal can do the same.

My bad, that was his OBP. Which is good.


Madrigal has 90 hits. 69 of those hits have been singles. Which is an appalling percentage of his hits. I'd argue that facing better defenders, and defenses keying in on his lack of power will make getting on base MORE difficult for Madrigal, and I'd really rather he learn to hit for more power while the competition is easier for him to do so.


I don't think it would be difficult for Madrigal to come up now and hit .290 or so and have a .320 or so OBP with absolutely no power. But that's not who we, or the Sox, should want him to be. He's got a chance to be a real special player, if he's allowed the time necessary to develop his game fully.
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  #83  
Old 07-09-2019, 05:06 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Madrigal has 90 hits. 69 of those hits have been singles. Which is an appalling percentage of his hits.
Appalling?


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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
I'd argue that facing better defenders, and defenses keying in on his lack of power will make getting on base MORE difficult for Madrigal
How? By pulling the outfielders in? Maybe an infield shift?


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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
and I'd really rather he learn to hit for more power while the competition is easier for him to do so.
If you desired a MI w/power and you knew that at the time your selection was on the clock why draft him? If the success of his power is due to the level of competition he faces, wouldn't he take a step back when he gets moved up and faces MLB competition?

I'd take a kid, who has been extremely successful in his approach at the plate, has a well rounded fundamental game and try to change his swing. Shades of Scot Thompson. Leave him alone.
With the game going as it is the power will come through maturation, live baseballs, strike zones geared to the hitter's advantage, lower quality of the player pool, etc.
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  #84  
Old 07-09-2019, 08:59 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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My bad, that was his OBP. Which is good.


Madrigal has 90 hits. 69 of those hits have been singles. Which is an appalling percentage of his hits. I'd argue that facing better defenders, and defenses keying in on his lack of power will make getting on base MORE difficult for Madrigal, and I'd really rather he learn to hit for more power while the competition is easier for him to do so.


I don't think it would be difficult for Madrigal to come up now and hit .290 or so and have a .320 or so OBP with absolutely no power. But that's not who we, or the Sox, should want him to be. He's got a chance to be a real special player, if he's allowed the time necessary to develop his game fully.
The thing is - Madrigal doesn’t really have a chance to be a special player. He isn’t going to be Altuve or Pedroia. He has a chance to be a perennial good to very good player, but we’re still talking a high average high obp sub .800 ops guy in most cases.

He isn’t going to hit for much more power. It isn’t his game. He’s probably more valuable as a .300-.375-.380 guy than hitting .280 with 6-8 more homers.
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  #85  
Old 07-09-2019, 09:24 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Appalling?



How? By pulling the outfielders in? Maybe an infield shift?



If you desired a MI w/power and you knew that at the time your selection was on the clock why draft him? If the success of his power is due to the level of competition he faces, wouldn't he take a step back when he gets moved up and faces MLB competition?

I'd take a kid, who has been extremely successful in his approach at the plate, has a well rounded fundamental game and try to change his swing. Shades of Scot Thompson. Leave him alone.
With the game going as it is the power will come through maturation, live baseballs, strike zones geared to the hitter's advantage, lower quality of the player pool, etc.

Yes, with defensive shifts.

We're not dealing with a guy with little power, we're dealing with a guy that hasn't learned to hit for ANY power.

If the White Sox thought Madrigal was going to be a guy that got 80% of his hits as soft flares and infield singles, then of course they shouldn't have drafted him at 3. But I don't think that's who Madrigal will be. That's who he is right now though.
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  #86  
Old 07-09-2019, 10:35 AM
Heffalump Heffalump is offline
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The thing is - Madrigal doesn’t really have a chance to be a special player. He isn’t going to be Altuve or Pedroia. He has a chance to be a perennial good to very good player, but we’re still talking a high average high obp sub .800 ops guy in most cases.

I don't understand this at all. Why doesn't he have a chance to be "special"? If he hits .300, .350+ OBP with 30-50 stolen bases and GG caliber defense for ten years, how is that not special? Why does it matter if he hits ANY home runs?
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  #87  
Old 07-09-2019, 10:44 AM
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Chez Chez is online now
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I don't understand this at all. Why doesn't he have a chance to be "special"? If he hits .300, .350+ OBP with 30-50 stolen bases and GG caliber defense for ten years, how is that not special? Why does it matter if he hits ANY home runs?
Agreed. Ichiro hit 117 HR's over 19 years in MLB. Rod Carew hit 92 HR's over 19 seasons. Both were "special" using anyone's definition of that word. I know the game currently emphasizes HR's above everything else (and I expect the pendulum to swing back at some point -- it always does), but to say Madrigal has no chance at being special because he doesn't hit home runs seems like an overstatement.
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  #88  
Old 07-09-2019, 10:58 AM
asindc asindc is offline
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Agreed. Ichiro hit 117 HR's over 19 years in MLB. Rod Carew hit 92 HR's over 19 seasons. Both were "special" using anyone's definition of that word. I know the game currently emphasizes HR's above everything else (and I expect the pendulum to swing back at some point -- it always does), but to say Madrigal has no chance at being special because he doesn't hit home runs seems like an overstatement.
It is an overstatement.
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  #89  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:00 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is online now
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When's the last time we had a GG caliber middle infielder hitting .392 at AA at age 22?

Seems pretty special to me.
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  #90  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:05 AM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Agreed. Ichiro hit 117 HR's over 19 years in MLB. Rod Carew hit 92 HR's over 19 seasons. Both were "special" using anyone's definition of that word. I know the game currently emphasizes HR's above everything else (and I expect the pendulum to swing back at some point -- it always does), but to say Madrigal has no chance at being special because he doesn't hit home runs seems like an overstatement.
Typical sports message board. We deal in absolutes: "____ will never make it. He's a AAAA player." "_______ will never be even okay in the field. Time to move him to 1B or DH."

I think Madrigal has the chance to develop more power just through strength and conditioning. He's got a very slight frame and isn't really built like Altuve but could still add 10-15 lbs of muscle. That could turn some of those singles into XBH.
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