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  #16  
Old 04-24-2019, 01:10 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
You'd think Moncada and Anderson's breakouts would result in Sox fans showing a little more patience with our younger players.
There is ample evidence to show posters that patience is required with developing players. There are of course superstars that fly through the minors without a hitch (Trout, Acuna, Soto), but that is uncommon. From my point of view, most of the impatience comes from a much repeated (but untrue) notion that the White Sox cannot develop position players. As soon as a player struggles the "here we go again" mindset kicks in.

While it is true that the White Sox have had a bad track record of promoting position players from the minors, much of that has to do with the fact that they did not take position players in the first round of the draft and did not spend money in the International Free Agent market on highly rated position players for more than a decade. You can't develop what you don't have in the first place.

If the problem was simply that the White Sox cannot develop young position players, you would have seen at least a few traded ex-White Sox draft picks/signees become quality players at the major league level, as the player's next team would know how to "develop" them. As we all have seen, this is not the case other than two or three players (Tatis, Semien, ?).

Since MLB has taken a lot of the advantages away from the usual cheaters in the draft and the international market, you're starting to see more quality MLB prospects come out of the White Sox farm system. It's not surprising and it was a focal point of the last few CBAs.

Patience is needed, patience is required, but unfortunately patience is not the hallmark of White Sox fans (most fans to be fair).
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  #17  
Old 04-24-2019, 01:20 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
There is ample evidence to show posters that patience is required with developing players. There are of course superstars that fly through the minors without a hitch (Trout, Acuna, Soto), but that is uncommon. From my point of view, most of the impatience comes from a much repeated (but untrue) notion that the White Sox cannot develop position players. As soon as a player struggles the "here we go again" mindset kicks in.

While it is true that the White Sox have had a bad track record of promoting position players from the minors, much of that has to do with the fact that they did not take position players in the first round of the draft and did not spend money in the International Free Agent market on highly rated position players for more than a decade. You can't develop what you don't have in the first place.

If the problem was simply that the White Sox cannot develop young position players, you would have seen at least a few traded ex-White Sox draft picks/signees become quality players at the major league level, as the player's next team would know how to "develop" them. As we all have seen, this is not the case other than two or three players (Tatis, Semien, ?).

Since MLB has taken a lot of the advantages away from the usual cheaters in the draft and the international market, you're starting to see more quality MLB prospects come out of the White Sox farm system. It's not surprising and it was a focal point of the last few CBAs.

Patience is needed, patience is required, but unfortunately patience is not the hallmark of White Sox fans (most fans to be fair).

Yep, agree with most of this. The Sox were drafting mid to late in the rounds every year for much of the last 2 decades and had a terrible philosophy of picking "athletes" over baseball players. I'm confident that drafting players like Madrigal, Walker, Collins, Fulmer, L. Gonzalez, Burger, Sheets, Hansen going forward combined with an added emphasis on international talent - will lead to a steady pipeline of MLB regulars with All Stars thrown in there as well.

I think the only players to be regretted in trades made are Gio Gonzalez and Tatis Jr. and I don't think those 2 needed much help in developing from their new team anyways.
  #18  
Old 04-24-2019, 01:53 PM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
But not the same draft. Madrigal and Hoerner = same league, same draft



I agree with you. But my point is that the #24 pick (as well as several others) is outshining the #4 pick made by the White Sox. Hopefully it is just sample size, as, indeed, it is a small sample. Or in a broader perspective, in the last 2 years, whether via draft or trade, what player has Hahn brought in that we can point to as a core piece?
If we're talking about anything after 4/24/2017 (two years ago today) as the arbitrary cut off for this question then: Dylan Cease, Eloy Jimenez, Luis Gonzalez, Nick Madrigal, Blake Rutherford, and possibly Steele Walker.

The question, of course, excludes Luis Robert who was signed in 2017 but wasn't acquired via trade or amateur draft.

How does that compare to other teams?
  #19  
Old 04-24-2019, 01:59 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Since MLB has taken a lot of the advantages away from the usual cheaters in the draft and the international market, you're starting to see more quality MLB prospects come out of the White Sox farm system. It's not surprising and it was a focal point of the last few CBAs.

Patience is needed, patience is required, but unfortunately patience is not the hallmark of White Sox fans (most fans to be fair).
Since there were no rules regarding going over slot it is unfair to call those teams "cheaters" they weren't breaking any MLB rules. I call them, "doing whatever it takes to win..." And give them a big shout out for doing so.

Regarding patience, given the track record of this organization just since the start of the 2007 season can you honestly blame said fans? Especially considering the same front office that drove the franchise into the ditch is being asked to fix all the issues they helped create.
  #20  
Old 04-24-2019, 02:13 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Can we not hijack every single thread with this sunk cost fallacy nonsense?
This has nothing to do with sunk cost fallacy. Sunk cost fallacy would be, say, not cutting Alonso because we invested $8 million in him.
What pieces long term pieces has Hahn added the last 2 years? He should be energetically working to acquire them (instead of chasing washed up veterans). It's a legitimate question, unless you think he deserves a 5+ year rebuild. And I can't think of a reason why he would he deserve that. Or why anyone would.
Where would this org. be ranked if based on Hahn/Hostetler's drafting and international signings? It wouldn't be top 10 (probably not top 15) and there are no excuses for it not to be top 10 considering where he drafted.

Last edited by Tragg; 04-24-2019 at 02:24 PM.
  #21  
Old 04-24-2019, 02:17 PM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
Is this thread seriously talking about Madrigal as a bust?

We've done it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Not really, just some early hand wringing...
Yeah, and the hand wringing is understandable. He was the #4 overall pick after all. I too wish Madrigal was hitting .350 right now with a few XBHs instead of .260 for someone with an elite hit tool. But it's too early to start 2nd guessing the pick and pointing to it as another failure by Sox brass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnieDarko View Post
People are also harping on him for not displaying much power--his weakest tool, the tool that his own game just isn't built on.

The guy is a future 9, 1, or 2 hitter. Don't try to pigeonhole him into what he is not.
Yes. He's never going to be a big HR guy, but if he can turn out to be the good hitter he has the talent for with the ability to hit for extra bases in addition to great defense, I can see him fitting in nicely to a successful lineup in a couple of years.
  #22  
Old 04-24-2019, 02:19 PM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
This has nothing to do with sunk cost fallacy. Sunk cost fallacy would be, say, not cutting Alonso because we invested $8 million in him.
What pieces long term pieces has Hahn added the last 2 years? It's a legitimate question, unless you think he deserves a 5+ year rebuild. And I can't think of a reason why he would he deserve that. Or why anyone would.
Already answered above.
  #23  
Old 04-24-2019, 02:36 PM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
This has nothing to do with sunk cost fallacy. Sunk cost fallacy would be, say, not cutting Alonso because we invested $8 million in him.
What pieces long term pieces has Hahn added the last 2 years? He should be energetically working to acquire them (instead of chasing washed up veterans). It's a legitimate question, unless you think he deserves a 5+ year rebuild. And I can't think of a reason why he would he deserve that. Or why anyone would.
Where would this org. be ranked if based on Hahn/Hostetler's drafting and international signings? It wouldn't be top 10 (probably not top 15) and there are no excuses for it not to be top 10 considering where he drafted.
If you're comparing Hahn/Hostetler's drafting and international signings from the last few years to those of other teams, I'm pretty certain it would be ranked in the top 10.
  #24  
Old 04-24-2019, 02:58 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
This has nothing to do with sunk cost fallacy. Sunk cost fallacy would be, say, not cutting Alonso because we invested $8 million in him.
What pieces long term pieces has Hahn added the last 2 years? He should be energetically working to acquire them (instead of chasing washed up veterans). It's a legitimate question, unless you think he deserves a 5+ year rebuild. And I can't think of a reason why he would he deserve that. Or why anyone would.
Where would this org. be ranked if based on Hahn/Hostetler's drafting and international signings? It wouldn't be top 10 (probably not top 15) and there are no excuses for it not to be top 10 considering where he drafted.
Not a sunk cost fallacy, but that sure looks like the strawman fallacy.
  #25  
Old 04-24-2019, 03:26 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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For the record, I personally am NOWHERE near Madrigal is a bust.

I am nervous that if he is a .280 hitter with a .700 ops, he isn't really all that great.

If he can get to 10-12 homers a year and 40 doubles and 30+ SB, he could be Whit Merrifield - a 4-5 WAR 2b.

But if he just hits .280 with a .700 ops, we are probably looking a 2-3 war guy, useful, but complementary and not building block. And at this point we NEED him to be a building block.

Long term - Offensively - you have Anderson looking like a cornerstone, Moncada looking like maybe one, Eloy has the potential to be the best of the bunch but has looked extremely over matched so far (which happens when kids first come up), with those 3, you need to hit on both Robert and Madrigal and then you can fill FA with cheap complimentary guys.

The Sox are not getting a building block in FA. There is no Jon Lester coming here.

Rotation Wise is Kopech and Cease can be legit 1-2 arms, we can fill out with what we have and FA.

The bullpen is promising.

I am just saying I am growing a little concerned over the lack of progress with his gap and power tool. albeit early. My biggest reason of concern is his age, he should be a guy who progresses quickly, that was the main attraction to him, high floor with a decent ceiling. Never an MVP talented hitter but a really good one. So it isn't like he is a young player vs more experience, he just has not translated it yet. Still plenty of time too, but that thought that people like Keith Law, who are betting on the .700 ops version, might be closer to correct
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  #26  
Old 04-24-2019, 04:16 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
If you're comparing Hahn/Hostetler's drafting and international signings from the last few years to those of other teams, I'm pretty certain it would be ranked in the top 10.
Before I register an opinion on this, I want to get some clarity from Tragg on what, precisely, he uses to measure Hahn’s effectiveness.

Are we comparing “draftees plus international signings” by GM/organization?

So we’re eliminating prospects acquired in trade? What about prospects traded away?

So we’re really comparing “what each team still has remaining in its system from its own draft classes and it’s own international signings.”

So for the Sox, they can’t count Eloy, Cease, Moncada, Kopech, Basabe, Giolito, Lopez, Dunning, Rutherford, or Tatis. But no other team can claim them in their systems, either. The Padres can’t be credited for Tatis, or the catcher they got from Cleveland whose name escapes me, because they didn’t draft/sign them. Right? For purposes of this ranking, we can’t claim Semien, and neither can the Athletics. Right?

So, under Hahn, we’re down to Abreu, Anderson, Rodon, Fry, Fulmer, Collins, Burdi, Hansen, Burger, Sheets, Adolfo, Robert, Gonzalez, Madrigal, Walker, Pilkington, Bush, Stiever, Johnson, Flores, Hamilton, Rivera, Lambert, Zavala, Thompson, Henzman, McClure, and Stephens. Right?
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  #27  
Old 04-24-2019, 04:48 PM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Since there were no rules regarding going over slot it is unfair to call those teams "cheaters" they weren't breaking any MLB rules. I call them, "doing whatever it takes to win..." And give them a big shout out for doing so.

Regarding patience, given the track record of this organization just since the start of the 2007 season can you honestly blame said fans? Especially considering the same front office that drove the franchise into the ditch is being asked to fix all the issues they helped create.
In fairness, you can't reference a track record dating back to 2007 when evaluating the current staff. Hahn has been the GM for about 6 years. Chris Getz has been director of player development for a little over 2 years. Nick Hostetler has been director of amateur scouting for around 3 years.

They've done a solid job in fixing a very broken farm system.
  #28  
Old 04-24-2019, 06:48 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
In fairness, you can't reference a track record dating back to 2007 when evaluating the current staff. Hahn has been the GM for about 6 years. Chris Getz has been director of player development for a little over 2 years. Nick Hostetler has been director of amateur scouting for around 3 years.

They've done a solid job in fixing a very broken farm system.
Harry: I understand your point but the fact is ownership is still the same since 2007, Kenny is still in a position of power and Rick was in a front office position during that time as well.

Those are the main people, the key decision makers and the guy who writes the checks, that's why I say 2007.
  #29  
Old 04-24-2019, 09:28 PM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Tilson and Escobar once again had big days for Charlotte. It seems like these guys are getting multiple hits every night lately. A quick check of the game logs, and Tilson has 3 3-hit games in his last 6, and Escobar has a 9-game hitting streak that includes 5 multi-hit games.

With the left side of the infield set for the big league club, there's not really an opportunity for Escobar (barring an injury) - unless he can be taught to play 2B? He's only got 2 games there in his career.

Tilson will hopefully get a chance at some point this season to show if he really has made some improvements to his game. I'm an Engel fan, I think his defense can add value on a contending team, but we really know what we have with him at this point.
  #30  
Old 04-24-2019, 09:47 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Yah Escobar is a 4a player who is what - 33 ? He can tear up Charlotte, but I want him nowhere near here and I really don’t like Yolmer or Rondon
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