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  #61  
Old 11-30-2018, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Tilson never had anything better than an average year in the minors beyond rookie ball. And he's getting worse - .577 in Charlotte in 270 at bats.
BTW, the trade for him was the first move of the rebuild.

The prospects from Sale and Eaton have now had 2 full years with the Sox. In the last 5 years, they've drafted 3rd, 8th, 10th, 11th and 4th. If the young core doesn't present itself in the next year or 2, will it ever?

I root for the White Sox, not its non-performing front office employees.
You just named the exact timeline for when a good portion of that core is expected to emerge.
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  #62  
Old 11-30-2018, 03:45 PM
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You just named the exact timeline for when a good portion of that core is expected to emerge.
And if it does, the Sox will be in good shape. I'm really looking for the ascending prospects to emerge - guys like Basabe and Gonzales. I hope they keep them in what appears to be at least some effort to "go for it."
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  #63  
Old 11-30-2018, 05:11 PM
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And if it does, the Sox will be in good shape. I'm really looking for the ascending prospects to emerge - guys like Basabe and Gonzales. I hope they keep them in what appears to be at least some effort to "go for it."
Sign Harper, hope one of those two or Robert hit their ceiling throw Eloy into the mix and let's get busy working on that next Commissioners Trophy...
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  #64  
Old 11-30-2018, 08:45 PM
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Sign Harper, hope one of those two or Robert hit their ceiling throw Eloy into the mix and let's get busy working on that next Commissioners Trophy...
That's fine as long as he leaves the prospects - all of them, without exception - alone.
When Hahn starts fishing for "proven veterans", he's dangerous. See 2014-16.
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  #65  
Old 11-30-2018, 09:16 PM
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That's fine as long as he leaves the prospects - all of them, without exception - alone.
When Hahn starts fishing for "proven veterans", he's dangerous. See 2014-16.
If what I said happens the rest of those guys are trade bait. Not to treat them as such would be a dereliction of Hahn’s duty, IMO.
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  #66  
Old 11-30-2018, 11:31 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Tilson never had anything better than an average year in the minors beyond rookie ball.
That's not factual. He hit very well in both A and Adv A. His second year in AA and first year in AAA were also good for someone 2 years younger than the competition. I'm not sure what you think "average" is, but his numbers are not "average".

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And he's getting worse - .577 in Charlotte in 270 at bats.
292 cherry picked plate appearances coming off a lost season to injuries is not exactly "getting worse".

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BTW, the trade for him was the first move of the rebuild.
So trading Zach Duke was some sort of big loss?

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The prospects from Sale and Eaton have now had 2 full years with the Sox. In the last 5 years, they've drafted 3rd, 8th, 10th, 11th and 4th. If the young core doesn't present itself in the next year or 2, when will it? Will it ever?
If the White Sox are still floundering around winning less than 70 games a season in 2020, then this was done horribly wrong. But looking at the players gained in the past few seasons, only a large number of catastrophic injuries would curtail a team that is well known to be on the rise.

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It's hard for me to maintain a positive glow about the short term prospects without tangible evidence of growth and improvement, given the history of this FO (peaked at 78 wins in what was a much easier task than this total rebuild).
Why would you take a short term view? That's what got the White Sox in trouble in the first place. Why would a team full of holes, a barren farm system and a minimal payroll try to patchwork together a playoff team over and over and over again?
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  #67  
Old 11-30-2018, 11:36 PM
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And if it does, the Sox will be in good shape. I'm really looking for the ascending prospects to emerge - guys like Basabe and Gonzales. I hope they keep them in what appears to be at least some effort to "go for it."
Prospects like Basabe and Gonzales are not cornerstone players. Like voodoo said, "trade bait".
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  #68  
Old 12-01-2018, 10:16 AM
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If what I said happens the rest of those guys are trade bait. Not to treat them as such would be a dereliction of Hahn’s duty, IMO.
No - not trading them is called building a core. Trading them, while not dereliction, would be more of the ongoing incompetence.
trading them for veterans is what he did last time, when he had a core of 3 (Sale, Eaton and Q). He peaked out at 78 wins. Part of that was a thin core, and part was his terrible eye for veteran talent (Hahn thought Samardzija was a top of the rotation pitcher; Frazier a transformational hitter; and Shields a viable innings-eater; and of course he was completely oblivious to what he had with Tatis).
At this time, right now, the Sox have a core of 0. It's very likely to blossom in the next year or 2. When it hits 6-8, THEN he can start trading for veterans (and hopefully, he uses scouts or has a better set of scouts than he did last time).
And, BTW, a core of 6 in the next year or 2 is not out of the realm of possibility: Jiminez, Moncada, Anderson (can he ever hit?), Basabe/Gonzales, 2 pitchers.
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  #69  
Old 12-01-2018, 10:28 AM
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That's not factual. He hit very well in both A and Adv A. His second year in AA and first year in AAA were also good for someone 2 years younger than the competition. I'm not sure what you think "average" is, but his numbers are not "average".
How are
.753 OPS in AAA and .739 in AA noteworthy? And how is using 270 at bats in his most recent AAA year "cherrypicking"? .593 OPS!!


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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post


Why would you take a short term view? That's what got the White Sox in trouble in the first place. Why would a team full of holes, a barren farm system and a minimal payroll try to patchwork together a playoff team over and over and over again?
I don't take a short term view. I don't care what the record of the ML team is right now or in 2019; and probably not 2020. I'm looking for a core. It may come in that time period - it needs to. By then, he'll have had time to build the core.
And right now, the core is 0. That's why I'm concerned.
I can see it blossoming to 6 or 8 within a year or 2 - not terribly confident that it will, but I'd much rather wait to see, versus trading these guys (which I'm afraid he will). The 2nd tier prospects today, are the first tier tomorrow. Good GMs have a feel for that.
And if it doesn't, the new GM will have a bunch of prospects to work with...which is better than a bunch of Todd Fraziers and James Shields to work with.
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  #70  
Old 12-01-2018, 10:30 AM
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No - not trading them is called building a core. Trading them, while not dereliction, would be more of the ongoing incompetence.
trading them for veterans is what he did last time, when he had a core of 3 (Sale, Eaton and Q). He peaked out at 78 wins. Part of that was a thin core, and part was his terrible eye for veteran talent (Hahn thought Samardzija was a top of the rotation pitcher; Frazier a transformational hitter; and Shields a viable innings-eater; and of course he was completely oblivious to what he had with Tatis).
At this time, right now, the Sox have a core of 0. It's very likely to blossom in the next year or 2. When it hits 6-8, THEN he can start trading for veterans (and hopefully, he uses scouts or has a better set of scouts than he did last time).
And, BTW, a core of 6 in the next year or 2 is not out of the realm of possibility: Jiminez, Moncada, Anderson (can he ever hit?), Basabe/Gonzales, 2 pitchers.
The opposite of not making "too many reckless trades" is not "don't trade anyone with value at all." it's "make sensible trades from positions of depth and strength to fill in areas that need improvement".

Your position strikes me as an emotional response to the situation. I also didn't suggest trading any of these players until they have found out which one will be starters at MLB level, but expecting them ALL to hit their ceiling AND have a position they can play seems a bit pie in the sky.
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  #71  
Old 12-01-2018, 10:32 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
No - not trading them is called building a core. Trading them, while not dereliction, would be more of the ongoing incompetence.
trading them for veterans is what he did last time, when he had a core of 3 (Sale, Eaton and Q). He peaked out at 78 wins. Part of that was a thin core, and part was his terrible eye for veteran talent (Hahn thought Samardzija was a top of the rotation pitcher; Frazier a transformational hitter; and Shields a viable innings-eater; and of course he was completely oblivious to what he had with Tatis).
At this time, right now, the Sox have a core of 0. It's very likely to blossom in the next year or 2. When it hits 6-8, THEN he can start trading for veterans (and hopefully, he uses scouts or has a better set of scouts than he did last time).
And, BTW, a core of 6 in the next year or 2 is not out of the realm of possibility: Jiminez, Moncada, Anderson (can he ever hit?), Basabe/Gonzales, 2 pitchers.
Can we dispense with the “Hahn thought Samardzija was a top of the rotation pitcher” trope?

Yes, Samardzija pitched on Opening Day 2015 because Chris Sale was hurt in spring training and was pushed back until Game 6.
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  #72  
Old 12-01-2018, 10:53 AM
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Can we dispense with the “Hahn thought Samardzija was a top of the rotation pitcher” trope?

Yes, Samardzija pitched on Opening Day 2015 because Chris Sale was hurt in spring training and was pushed back until Game 6.
I didn't say he thought he was an Ace or that he was Chris Sale....I said he thought he was a top of the rotation starter (good teams have 2 of these; sometimes more; some people thought Q was a top of the rotation starter, and at his peak, he might have been). Samardzija is a 3/4 starter.
And BTW, Anderson and Moncada have a long way to go before they equal Semien and Escobar (2 players that evaluators Williams/Hahn sent packing for 1.5 years of Samardzija/Liriano). Do the Sox really need more of those type of trades for proven veterans?
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  #73  
Old 12-01-2018, 11:09 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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I didn't say he thought he was an Ace or that he was Chris Sale....I said he thought he was a top of the rotation starter (good teams have 2 of these; sometimes more; some people thought Q was a top of the rotation starter, and at his peak, he might have been). Samardzija is a 3/4 starter.
And BTW, Anderson and Moncada have a long way to go before they equal Semien and Escobar (2 players that evaluators Williams/Hahn sent packing for 1.5 years of Samardzija/Liriano). Do the Sox really need more of those type of trades for proven veterans?
I completely agree with your assessment of what Samardzija is, and was in 2015.

I also agree with you that Semien and Escobar have out-performed expectations, causing those trades to be net losses for the Sox.

I also agree with you that those trades do not speak well of the Sox pro scouting department, whose composition is the responsibility of KW and Hahn (to whatever extent they have authority to hire/fire independent from JR). Sox scouts didn’t know what they had with Semien, Escobar, and status, and didn’t see the problems with Samardzija, Liriano, and Shields (or perhaps they did and KW/Hahn aggressively proceeded anyway).

I disagree with your assessment that Hahn thought Samardzija “was a top of the rotation” pitcher. He paid a mid-rotation price, not a top of the rotation price.

I think the Sox had come to believe that trading prospects away would not come to haunt them, because they had previously - without much negative consequence - traded away prospects for veteran pitchers like Colon, Garcia, El Duque, Vazquez, and Peavy, who did provide significant contributions.
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  #74  
Old 12-01-2018, 07:33 PM
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How are
.753 OPS in AAA and .739 in AA noteworthy? And how is using 270 at bats in his most recent AAA year "cherrypicking"? .593 OPS!!
You're taking one stat and trying to extrapolate "average" without any sort of deeper dive into the player or the league he played in. While a .739 AA OPS is not mind blowing, it was still well above that particular league's average that year and Tilson was also well below league average in terms of age at only 22. He also had a very respectable .351 OBP and BB:K of .63 that season. His slash line in his 23 year old season at AAA was about the same, again better than average while playing much older competition. Your .593 is based off a few at bats coming off an injury. It's not at all indicative of Tilson's abilities or history and undeniably not some sort of regression.

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And right now, the core is 0. That's why I'm concerned.
Perhaps your definition of the word "core" is a bit different than others.
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  #75  
Old 12-01-2018, 07:42 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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And BTW, Anderson and Moncada have a long way to go before they equal Semien and Escobar (2 players that evaluators Williams/Hahn sent packing for 1.5 years of Samardzija/Liriano). Do the Sox really need more of those type of trades for proven veterans?
Eduardo Escobar and Marcus Semien? I wouldn't take both of those guys for Moncada today. The White Sox aren't missing anything by not having those two very average players on the roster in 2019. Moncada will have much better career numbers when all is said and done.
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