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  #76  
Old 07-14-2014, 06:02 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
Guys like Feller, Pierce, Ford, Wynn, Spahn, Drysdale, Roberts, Burdette, Bunning, Marichal, Gibson just to name a few hung on a long time. The one great pitcher whose career was cut short was of course Koufax.
Right, but I'm thinking of the league as a whole, not just star players.
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  #77  
Old 07-14-2014, 06:26 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
Right, but I'm thinking of the league as a whole, not just star players.
OK, thinking back on guys that I would call journeymen types, you had Donovan, Ray Herbert, Joel Horlen, Gary Peters on the Sox, then guys like Bob Rush and Dick Ellsworth and Kenny Holtzman on the Cubs. Stottlemeyer, Grim, Terry and Larsen on the Yankees. Johnny Podres on the Dodgers, Face and Friend on the Pirates, I could name a lot more but yes I think pitchers lasted longer back then.
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  #78  
Old 07-14-2014, 06:31 PM
kufram kufram is offline
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I heard somewhere the problem goes back to pitch counts introduced at young ages and the arms are never built up to the strength those guys had. I'm not saying that players shouldn't be protected, it is just something I heard on a broadcast. I would be interested in the trend of pitcher longevity over the years, but I think pitchers like the guys listed in a previous post can't be produced so much any more. They didn't all die young of arm failure did they?

I can live with changing times and pitchers getting some kind of commendable stat for pitching a few innings... I don't value it much, but who am I? I just don't like the game being controlled so much, especially every close game, by guys that don't go one inch outside of a certain role. They come in fresh and strong and only in situations that favour them and face guys that have been actually, you know, playing the whole game. It would be fair if a manager could pinch hit with specialist hitters 3-4 times in in the 8th and again in the 9th inning in close games but those guys don't have to play the field. A bench full of hitters to match up spontaneously with whatever pitcher is brought in.

But then, I don't understand why a pitcher that only works one inning or less can't do that every night or at least several in a row. I guess it shows how little I know.

Last edited by kufram; 07-14-2014 at 06:38 PM.
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  #79  
Old 07-14-2014, 06:48 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
OK, thinking back on guys that I would call journeymen types, you had Donovan, Ray Herbert, Joel Horlen, Gary Peters on the Sox, then guys like Bob Rush and Dick Ellsworth and Kenny Holtzman on the Cubs. Stottlemeyer, Grim, Terry and Larsen on the Yankees. Johnny Podres on the Dodgers, Face and Friend on the Pirates, I could name a lot more but yes I think pitchers lasted longer back then.
Friend like Lolich on the Tigers was a real workhorse. Great control pitcher. Much better than his W-L and I hope that is not opening another can of worms.
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  #80  
Old 07-14-2014, 08:16 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kufram View Post
I heard somewhere the problem goes back to pitch counts introduced at young ages and the arms are never built up to the strength those guys had. I'm not saying that players shouldn't be protected, it is just something I heard on a broadcast. I would be interested in the trend of pitcher longevity over the years, but I think pitchers like the guys listed in a previous post can't be produced so much any more. They didn't all die young of arm failure did they?

I can live with changing times and pitchers getting some kind of commendable stat for pitching a few innings... I don't value it much, but who am I? I just don't like the game being controlled so much, especially every close game, by guys that don't go one inch outside of a certain role. They come in fresh and strong and only in situations that favour them and face guys that have been actually, you know, playing the whole game. It would be fair if a manager could pinch hit with specialist hitters 3-4 times in in the 8th and again in the 9th inning in close games but those guys don't have to play the field. A bench full of hitters to match up spontaneously with whatever pitcher is brought in.

But then, I don't understand why a pitcher that only works one inning or less can't do that every night or at least several in a row. I guess it shows how little I know.
MLB Network had a really good roundtable on this at the beginning of the season and the writers, former players and a few doctors really emphasized that point above. The consensus was that the damage is done waaay before a pitcher even signs their first professional contract.
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  #81  
Old 07-15-2014, 01:00 AM
MISoxfan MISoxfan is offline
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I would think that if anything young pitchers (pre-mlb) throw more often and much differently than they did 50 years ago.
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  #82  
Old 07-18-2014, 02:46 AM
kufram kufram is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
That seems to assume that pitchers in the past didn't get injured, or got injured at a lesser rate, or that pitcher's careers were longer then. I'm not sure what correlation there is between pitcher use over time in the sport and the frequency of injury. It's such an unnatural act for the human body to perform that I expect injuries to be fairly common in all eras.
Is it unnatural? The shoulder developed as it did in humans because they needed to be able to throw to survive... to kill for food. Perhaps the baseball is too light for the strength of the shoulder so the elbow gets the strain. Where on the body do most pitcher's injuries occur?
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  #83  
Old 07-18-2014, 03:02 AM
doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by kufram View Post
Is it unnatural? The shoulder developed as it did in humans because they needed to be able to throw to survive... to kill for food. Perhaps the baseball is too light for the strength of the shoulder so the elbow gets the strain. Where on the body do most pitcher's injuries occur?
The motion is not necessarily unnatural but doing it 100 times in the course of 2-3 hours probably is
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  #84  
Old 07-18-2014, 06:32 AM
kufram kufram is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
The motion is not necessarily unnatural but doing it 100 times in the course of 2-3 hours probably is
Sure, that goes without saying... any labour comes with strain. Ask somebody who lays bricks, or pulls concrete and that is 8 hours a day without a break every 15-20 minutes.

That is why the arm strength needs to be built up slowly from a young age and maintained over years.

My point was that the human shoulder and arm was built to throw as a primary purpose.
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  #85  
Old 07-18-2014, 10:20 AM
34 Inch Stick 34 Inch Stick is offline
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Originally Posted by kufram View Post
Sure, that goes without saying... any labour comes with strain. Ask somebody who lays bricks, or pulls concrete and that is 8 hours a day without a break every 15-20 minutes.
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  #86  
Old 07-18-2014, 03:17 PM
Milw Milw is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
OK, thinking back on guys that I would call journeymen types, you had Donovan, Ray Herbert, Joel Horlen, Gary Peters on the Sox, then guys like Bob Rush and Dick Ellsworth and Kenny Holtzman on the Cubs. Stottlemeyer, Grim, Terry and Larsen on the Yankees. Johnny Podres on the Dodgers, Face and Friend on the Pirates, I could name a lot more but yes I think pitchers lasted longer back then.
My guess isn't so much that they "lasted longer," it's that the medical expertise didn't exist to identify injuries when they happened (or, more likely, there was external pressure from either the organization or the player to "just patch it up"). A lot of these guys with arm injuries could pitch through them if they really wanted/needed to, at least for awhile. They're smart not to, of course, but I really don't buy the idea that today's pitchers are somehow more injury prone.
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  #87  
Old 07-18-2014, 03:34 PM
RCWHITESOX RCWHITESOX is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
I think if the Sox can somehow solve closer, the rest of the pen will fall into place with an addition or two.

The second half is time to try these guys and see how they do.

Personally I'd prefer the Sox add an established arm to close next year, and that and a LF/RF who can play decent defense and really hit well for average are their two biggest holes to fill for next season.
Your on target but you forgot to include catcher. Please not another year of watching Tyler Flowers pathetic play.
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  #88  
Old 07-18-2014, 05:26 PM
Whitesox029 Whitesox029 is offline
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Running with the theme, the Sox are 6 games better than they were last year. Also, if nothing else were different, but they had a better bullpen, I think they would be .500. Everything else has been better than a lot of people expected.
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  #89  
Old 07-18-2014, 05:35 PM
kufram kufram is offline
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The All Star break has been a harbinger of a change in fortunes many times for many teams ... not a good change for the White Sox often enough. It is the start of the real season. Maybe this time the trend can be a start with some wins.
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